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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Nazgul in the films...
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Remus
Lorien

Nov 10 2013, 11:39pm

Post #26 of 40 (251 views)
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A question! [In reply to] Can't Post

How could that Nazgul statue clinch(?)press his fist? Stone cant move like that.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2013, 11:42pm

Post #27 of 40 (261 views)
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That's because they were "real" in FOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

They were guys dressed up to look like that, the AUJ wraith was cgi. To me they both looked scary and equally "real".


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 10 2013, 11:53pm

Post #28 of 40 (243 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

What book Gandalf is implying is that, while the Ring and the horcruces bear certain similarities, we shouldn't map a term from the Harry Potter legendarium onto Tolkien's legendarium (I mean of course you can, but it raises issues.)

As for my two cents, I think the Ring could be contextualized as a horcrux only in the range of the HP universe. The relative infrequency of practical magic in Middle-Earth gives the Ring a heightened significance which would be trivialized if you tried to classify every supernatural element of Arda according to a system where basically every element of one's existence is imbued with (or even dependent upon) magic. This is why I don't think the two legendariums, or vocabulary from either, should bleed into one another when trying to explain either of them.

In addition, I just don't like the idea of classifying things using vocabulary from Rowling's world. Her butchery of Latin phonology left me reeling occasionally. Thankfully I enjoyed the story enough that I could look past that.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 11 2013, 3:22am

Post #29 of 40 (205 views)
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Please inform us of the confirming quote. I desperately hope we get an Amon Sul re-enactment of Dol Guldur, but NO [In reply to] Can't Post

breaking of any staves by the Witch-King. Leave that to Sauron alone, there is just no WAY any of the Nazgul, including their chief, should have that kind of power against an Istari out of Aman at this stage in the timeline.

I would LOVE an Amon Sul styled scene, however... "At night they closed round and I was beseiged on the hilltop in the old ring of Amon Sul... such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war beacons of olde!"

In Reply To
How do you think they will be potrayed ? Will they resemble a ghostly figure like we saw in AUJ ? Or perhaps a more LOTR style with black robes ?

With the 'nine' being confirmed to be in these movies i was just wondering what people thought their appearence should look like...

Personally i hope they go for a more LOTR appearence rather than them being portrayed as ghosts.. Sure the witch king could be a ghost but maybe the lesser ones should resemble more real beings.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 11 2013, 3:54am

Post #30 of 40 (198 views)
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The Witch-King was wearing black armour and a monstrous mask when Glorfindel drove him from the field [In reply to] Can't Post

at the Battle of Fornost.

In Reply To
give any reference into what armour/clothing they wore before the LOTR ??


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 11 2013, 4:05am

Post #31 of 40 (186 views)
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I think Radagast knocking the Witch-King out is reasonable, but would have been [In reply to] Can't Post

better handled had there been some minor eruption of light from his staff when it struck the wraith-lord. Then it would have been more easily recognized for an act of power. That said, as I mentioned before elsewher, if you look carefully, the staff does strike the witch-king's face. It is plausible that, sense a normal weapon wielded by a normal person would have withered upon touching him, that a magical weapon wielded by a sufficiently powerful supernatural being would have the effect on the wraiths that a normal weapon would have on an ordinary person, even without the lightshow.

In Reply To
That is the MAIN difference. Also supported by how easily Radagast manages to knock him out.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 11 2013, 4:42am

Post #32 of 40 (167 views)
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A part of. lol. I don't think its even that it was a piss poor attempt. It is all perspective, as you say. [In reply to] Can't Post

The audience fears for a person in the films (unless the horror is shown lurking in city closets and under suburban beds, which can make one nervous personally lol). The same Nazgul would have been quite frightful if it had been a Hobbit or human standing there, and the stab had landed, or been just barely evaded by a terrified would be victim who is back peddling in terror.

Radagast responded, appropriately for one of his Order, with a "aw hell no you WON'T, wraith!" and we cheered for rather than gravely feared for him.

In Reply To
Frodo carried Sauron's very soul around his neck in a horcrux. He was a vulnerable, terrified little hobbit contending with the witch king of Angmar.

Radagast was a Maiar, one of the five... and among the most powerful beings in middle earth. It stands to reason he was able to overpower the wraith here. The scene is meant to show us how he retrieved the morgul blade and nothing more. The only time Radagast shows any real fear is at the glimpse of the necromancer... which was indeed a little unsettling. At least for me. I don't think the filmmakers were trying to scare us with the wraith. If they were, it was a piss poor attempt and never even crossed my mind.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 11 2013, 10:39am

Post #33 of 40 (113 views)
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Could not agree more. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't see much difference. Certainly not enough difference to say one was good and the other 'bad CGI'.


But the bad CGI tag seems to stick with this trilogy. Unreservedly imho.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 11 2013, 11:43am

Post #34 of 40 (103 views)
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There is simply more CGI in The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

And actually more CGI than I've seen in most recent films in general.

Time can not possibly be given to each CGI sequence as is required. For instance, Gollum looked amazing. The Goblin King...not so much.

With so much CGI, certain scenes end up getting more attention than others. This is the problem.

Special Effects should be addressed on a scene-by-scene basis.

What looks the best? What is the most effective for this shot?

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 11 2013, 11:53am

Post #35 of 40 (96 views)
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I agree with you about the scene by scene basis. [In reply to] Can't Post

And seeing how Azog got changed depending on what seemed to work or not work for the filmmaker, this was done. As also the Orc killed by Gollum was mainly prosthetics.

I disagree, however, on the Goblin King, for example whom I really enjoyed. As I enjoyed Azog's CGI but have an issue with his colour grading which I find would have looked better with a darker tone, more grey than white.

So I guess the case by case thing is not in question by all of us, just when and where what decision would have been better ;)


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Fardragon
Rohan


Nov 11 2013, 1:49pm

Post #36 of 40 (82 views)
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The question to debate [In reply to] Can't Post

is to what extent was Rowling influenced by Tolkien, given that she is not a fan of his work?

Of course, the idea of using an object as a receptical for part of a soul (usually in order to achieve imortality) predates both writers by thousands of years.

The Rowling version actually more closely resembles a Dungeons & Dragons Litch's phylactory.


In Reply To
What book Gandalf is implying is that, while the Ring and the horcruces bear certain similarities, we shouldn't map a term from the Harry Potter legendarium onto Tolkien's legendarium (I mean of course you can, but it raises issues.)

As for my two cents, I think the Ring could be contextualized as a horcrux only in the range of the HP universe. The relative infrequency of practical magic in Middle-Earth gives the Ring a heightened significance which would be trivialized if you tried to classify every supernatural element of Arda according to a system where basically every element of one's existence is imbued with (or even dependent upon) magic. This is why I don't think the two legendariums, or vocabulary from either, should bleed into one another when trying to explain either of them.

In addition, I just don't like the idea of classifying things using vocabulary from Rowling's world. Her butchery of Latin phonology left me reeling occasionally. Thankfully I enjoyed the story enough that I could look past that.


A Far Dragon is the best kind...


dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 11 2013, 1:54pm

Post #37 of 40 (86 views)
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"They've taken the guise of riders in black" [In reply to] Can't Post

implies their appearance was different before. Granted it doesn't need to have been the first time they used that guise for Saruman's statement to be technically correct, but I'd vote for something different this time around.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 11 2013, 7:01pm

Post #38 of 40 (60 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder, since it's a theme that appears with decent regularity over a long period of time, if there is not already a term used to describe such objects which could be applied to all without needing to draw a term from the specific writings of one individual.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Oin K
Rivendell


Nov 11 2013, 7:17pm

Post #39 of 40 (62 views)
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The Witch King didn't break Gandalf's staff [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be silly. It never happened.

What happened is that Gandalf broke his own staff to make the Witch King overconfident and think he'd defeated the wizard so that he'd go back to the fields and leave Gandalf to direct the fighting inside the city.

It was Gandalf's way of saying, "No, this is not how I am going to conduct this battle. You will be cast down, but not by me."

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 11 2013, 8:20pm

Post #40 of 40 (55 views)
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lol Well said, and makes much more sense [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool

In Reply To
That would be silly. It never happened.

What happened is that Gandalf broke his own staff to make the Witch King overconfident and think he'd defeated the wizard so that he'd go back to the fields and leave Gandalf to direct the fighting inside the city.

It was Gandalf's way of saying, "No, this is not how I am going to conduct this battle. You will be cast down, but not by me."


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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