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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Visual Companion confirms the reason for the film dwarves and elves' enmity.

Mithfânion
Rivendell

Nov 10 2013, 2:22pm

Post #1 of 14 (1310 views)
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Visual Companion confirms the reason for the film dwarves and elves' enmity. Can't Post

Jude Fisher's Visual Companion has a section about the enmity between Dwarves and Elves.
It says that the rift between the Elves and Dwarves came about because the elves do not work metal, and because of that, Thranduil made a deal with Thror.
The dwarves would shape his raw gold and gemstones into wondrous jewellery. The Elves claim that the dwarves were so overcome by what they had wrought from this, that they stole the treasure.
The Dwarves however say that they were never compensated for their work by Thranduil as initially agreed, and thus kept the jewels as recompense.

So the scene from the EE prologue where Thranduil is shown a casket with gems and a large necklace in it, is supposed to have been made for him.
But the dwarves then deny him this treasure.


(This post was edited by Mithfânion on Nov 10 2013, 2:22pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 10 2013, 2:28pm

Post #2 of 14 (662 views)
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That is a good way... [In reply to] Can't Post

... to handle the issue that the Sil is off limits to the filmmakers and a explanation that feels Tolkienish. Especially the fact that it doesn't say who is right or wrong.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Escapist
Gondor


Nov 10 2013, 2:36pm

Post #3 of 14 (582 views)
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thumbs up from me! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is quite tricky considering the Sil as was mentioned. I also like how this puts an elvish claim on some of Smaug's horde without requiring a more complex explanation as to how it was obtained.


Barrow-Wight
Lorien


Nov 10 2013, 3:15pm

Post #4 of 14 (586 views)
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Elves don't work metal? [In reply to] Can't Post

this is probably a stupid question but That means the Mirkwood elves right? Cause Elrond's people reforged Anduril in the films and Gandalf,Thorin's and Bilbo's swords are all elven make


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 10 2013, 3:25pm

Post #5 of 14 (566 views)
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Well, that's pretty much what it says in the book! [In reply to] Can't Post

From "Flies and Spiders"



Quote


"So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay."





No problem there...

The passage later continues: "All this was well-known to every dwarf, though Thorin's family had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of."

So the difference is, PJ has decided Thorn's family should be connected with the old Nauglamir story


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 10 2013, 3:26pm)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 10 2013, 3:28pm

Post #6 of 14 (545 views)
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Only jewelry I think [In reply to] Can't Post

And who is producing the Elf weapons? Who did make the daggers, arrowheads, spears and just look at the heavy armor of Thranduils guards... who did make those? I think that the Woodland Elves are able to forge weapons and stuff but not jewelry otherwise they would have been very, very addicted to Dwarven work... and I can't imagine that.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 10 2013, 4:17pm

Post #7 of 14 (478 views)
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Right!!!!!!! THe Noldor not working.... nevermind. It has to mean just The Wood Elves. lol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
this is probably a stupid question but That means the Mirkwood elves right? Cause Elrond's people reforged Anduril in the films and Gandalf,Thorin's and Bilbo's swords are all elven make


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Mithfânion
Rivendell

Nov 10 2013, 4:25pm

Post #8 of 14 (487 views)
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Silvan Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Well the Visual Companion states "Elves do not work metal". Of course we know this is incorrect, since even in the film universe we are told things like "this blade was forged by the High Elves of the West".

They probably mean that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood don't work metal, and more specifically, they probably mean that they do not work with gold, silver and gemstones, they do not re-work these natural materials. Because Celebrimbor would have a thing or two to say about that ;)


Mithfânion
Rivendell

Nov 10 2013, 4:28pm

Post #9 of 14 (459 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

    



Quote


That is a good way to handle the issue that the Sil is off limits to the filmmakers and a explanation that feels Tolkienish. Especially the fact that it doesn't say who is right or wrong.





The text, or the filmmakers, do not take a side in this. Either side could be at fault, or both.

Similarly, and you see this in Lee Pace's recent interview as well, they also take no sides in whether or not Thranduil and his Elves should have aided the dwarves then the Elven army arrived after Smauh had already taken Erebor.
Several reasons are brought up by Pace and in this book as well, for why it makes sense for the Elves to not intervene.


(This post was edited by Mithfânion on Nov 10 2013, 4:29pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 10 2013, 8:35pm

Post #10 of 14 (284 views)
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I would only apply the statement to the Sylvan Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Wood-elves, especially before the reigns of Thranduil and his father before him, would have had few (if any) permanent settlements. Therefore, most of the metalwork that they would have produced would have been pratical items (arrowheads, spearheads, knives, hatchets, etc.).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Oin K
Rivendell


Nov 11 2013, 7:27pm

Post #11 of 14 (111 views)
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Yet more evidence that PJ is transposing the Beren & Luthien tale onto this one! [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspected from the first glance we got of the Arkenstone that PJ is going to run with the "Arkenstone is a Silmaril" theory, and then when I saw Thranduil's halls I immediately thought "Yup, that's Menegroth."

Now you're telling me that they're using the same backstory as that of the Silmaril and the Nauglamir, just moving it forward in time to a different elven king?

That's it. I'm calling it again: someone is going to lose a hand getting that Arkenstone out of the Mountain. My bet is on Kili, and Tauriel will be his Luthien. I know it's a loose analogy, but Jackson is very clearly borrowing details from the Silmarillion already, even if he doesn't have the rights to it. What's next, the Arkenstone finds its way to Dol Guldur and Tauriel has to sing the Necromancer to sleep to get it back?

Will there be a giant hound too?

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)


Mithfânion
Rivendell

Nov 11 2013, 7:47pm

Post #12 of 14 (90 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Will there be a giant hound too?







God I hope so.


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 11 2013, 8:04pm

Post #13 of 14 (88 views)
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Azog lost his hand. [In reply to] Can't Post

Does that mean Tauriel and Azog will get it on?



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Nov 12 2013, 12:49am

Post #14 of 14 (69 views)
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That might need a spoiler tag! ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Now we know more about the Elf origins of some Orc breeds, and the identity of one of Saruman's breeding experiment participants! ;)

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NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011

 
 

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