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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Mouth of Sauron appearance?


Nov 9 2013, 2:15am

Post #1 of 20 (1273 views)
Mouth of Sauron appearance? Can't Post

I've always really liked this character and after some follow up reading I found that there's a lot of evidence that shows he was already alive long before the events of the Hobbit. Any evidence that he might make an appearance? Or just is that just wishful thinking?

(This post was edited by Blkcpt on Nov 9 2013, 2:24am)

Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 9 2013, 2:43am

Post #2 of 20 (617 views)
It seems very unlikely... [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we're already going to see the Nazgul at Dol Guldur, I think the Witch-King is going to carry any scenes of the kind the MoS would have fit into. We certainly haven't heard any whispers about him.


"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."

Tol Eressea

Nov 9 2013, 5:54am

Post #3 of 20 (528 views)
Maybe he could have a romance with Tauriel... [In reply to] Can't Post

Loved MoS, and Bruce Spence was really creepy in the role, but i don't see PJ putting him in these films.


Nov 9 2013, 6:51am

Post #4 of 20 (502 views)
Can't imagine why he should appear.// [In reply to] Can't Post



Nov 9 2013, 9:10am

Post #5 of 20 (458 views)
My thoughts exactly, Elizabeth. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no need for him to make an appearance in the film.

..The Lord of Silver Fountains
.....The King of Carven Stone
..The King Under the Mountain
.......Shall come into his own

..And the bells will ring in gladness
......At the Mountain King's return
..But all shall fail in sadness
....And the lake will shine and burn


Nov 9 2013, 9:20am

Post #6 of 20 (452 views)
I would love to see him! [In reply to] Can't Post

BUT we won't. Because it is a kids movie, that's why.

Boromir: One does not simply walk into Mordor...

Gandalf: FLY, YOU FOOLS!


Nov 9 2013, 11:06am

Post #7 of 20 (427 views)
MOS [In reply to] Can't Post

first entered Saurons service when the Barad-dur was rebuilt. Wasn't that in the immediate years after the Hobbit.


Nov 9 2013, 11:36am

Post #8 of 20 (415 views)
The same reason he did in the return of the king [In reply to] Can't Post

To be the mouth of sauron lol. Or is sauron a physical being at this time?

The Shire

Nov 9 2013, 1:02pm

Post #9 of 20 (390 views)
Now we're talkin' [In reply to] Can't Post

I too am a big fan of Mouthy. Here is my nerdy, ill-informed research on the subject...

1- Could the MOS be Sauron's "colonial governor" of Dol Guldur? It is implied in the ROTK book that he wants to be the ruler of Isengard on Sauron's behalf. Maybe because he lost his old position in Dol Guldur.

This seems unlikely because PJ isn't viewing Dol Guldur as an occupied fortress. It's just a haunted ruin. I don't know the nature of the Dol Guldur battle yet. If it's actual armies fighting he might make an appearance as a lieutenant.

2- His familiar "Old Greybeard" remark to Gandalf in ROTK seems like they might have met before. I always assumed (without evidence) that Galdalf was snooping in the "dungeons of the Necromancer" and was captured. He was placed in prison and interrogated by the MOS personally. Then Gandalf met Thrain, got the map and key, and escaped.

This is very unlikely because Dol Guldur isn't occupied, having a chump like the MOS capture him is kind of pathetic, and there's no reason to assume that they really met face to face. The "Old Greybeard" remark could just be a common name that Mordor agents refer to Gandalf since he is such a nuissance. Or, it has been implied by some people that the MOS is actually a transmitter of Sauron's actual mind, so the words he speaks really are Sauron's words. In that case, "Old Greybeard" may be Sauron mocking Gandalf for choosing to manifest his spirit as an old man, while Sauron himself always chooses very intimidating or manipulative forms.

3- Maybe we'll see him perform some type of negotiator role with the White Council if they come to Dol Guldur.

This seems a little forced and would draw too much on his ROTK-EE appearance. Plus, he better run straight to Mordor after negotiating or his survival would be doubtful!

So, in conclusion, I really doubt we'll see him, but it's nice to speculate. Now, If PJ did post-credit scenes, or if he had the chance to make updated scenes for the LOTR movies (impossible and ill-advised, I know), maybe we could see him visit the Lonely Mountain to ask the Dwarves for information on Bilbo. This scene is described by Gimli in the FOTR book, where some agent of Sauron tries to negotiate with the Dwarves to betray their old friend Bilbo in exchange for the remaining Dwarf-rings and the kingdom of Moria. I don't think it specifically says that the MOS is the agent, but I think something this tricky implies that it is not a Black Rider so it could be the MOS. I always felt a little upset at this scene that the Dwarves would even consider the offer, but the greed at having Moria restored seems like a big temptation. It's a funny moment too, because the negotiator says that the ring Bilbo stole was an unimportant trifle that Sauron fancies, but he's willing to negotiate the richest kingdom in Middle Earth for it! It just looks like a bad car salesman tactic.

Anyway, thanks for letting me unload on your thread. MOS posts are few and far between!

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur

Nov 9 2013, 1:02pm

Post #10 of 20 (404 views)
"He entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" [In reply to] Can't Post

But what is "it"? Is it Barad-dr or the power of Sauron? I always interpeted it as the last. What would make the Mouth at least 3200 years old. How could he (even as a Black Numenorean) became so old? Actually I read somewhere once that he might became a ring bearer too. Perhaps Sauron gave him one of the Dwarven Rings of Power? Here is my theory why the Mouth could (not should) be in TH according to the movie timeline and facts:

Battle of Dagorlad (2940 years before TH):
Sauron is defeated and lost the Ring to Isildur. He also lost most of his power.

Disaster at the Gladden Fields (2938 years before TH):
Isildur is ambushed by Orcs and betrayed by the Ring. The Ring is lost for almost 2500 years.

Dagol finds the Ring (500 years before TH):
Smagol takes the Ring and enters the Misty Mountains. Perhaps this is the time where Sauron "awakes"

Defeat of Angmar (400 years before TH):

The Witch-King of Angmar is defeated by the Men of the North and his body is sealed within the High Fells of Rhudaur. Beginning of the Watchful Peace

Smaug takes Erebor (150 years before TH):
The dragon Smaug (a potential ally of Sauron) takes Erebor

The Beorning Genocide (shortly before Azanulbizar):
Azog the Defiler and his Orcs wipe out the whole race of the Beornings except for Beorn himself. Perhaps on Saurons behalf?

Battle of Azanulbizar (142 years before TH):
Azog the Defiler (obviously a servant of Sauron) wants to wipe out the line of Durin. Thrain and his Ring of Power are lost. He is captured by forces of Sauron. This might be the time where the Necromancer appears again after he took the most powerful of the Seven Rings. And this might be also the time where the Mouth of Sauron entered the service because in the movieverse this is the moment where Sauron first rose again. If this is correct the Mouth might be almost 250 years old in ROTK which is believable. Perhaps Sauron even awakenes the Nazgl around this time with his new powers who now leave the High Fells and come to Dol Guldur.

Greendwood becomes Mirkwood (0 years before TH):

The Necromancer is seen in Dol Guldur, the Witch-King of Angmar is also there. Bilbo finds the One Ring in Gollums cave.

Also I remember reading in the new DOS book that Dol Guldur is now designed as a former ruined fortress of the Numenoreans... and the Mouth was one of them.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 9 2013, 1:04pm)

Tol Eressea

Nov 9 2013, 6:26pm

Post #11 of 20 (294 views)
I hope so [In reply to] Can't Post


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Nov 9 2013, 6:31pm

Post #12 of 20 (294 views)
(*looks up and points*) He's here! I see him!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

(Couldn't resist MoS!) LaughLaugh

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

Tol Eressea

Nov 9 2013, 6:34pm

Post #13 of 20 (289 views)
I hope u suffer greatly at the hands of your host [In reply to] Can't Post


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Nov 9 2013, 7:04pm

Post #14 of 20 (274 views)
This is an interesting idea, [In reply to] Can't Post

but remember that the film makers chopped off 100 years between the fall of Erebor and The Hobbit, probably so they wouldn't need to explain how Dwarves can be so old but look so young. That means the Battle of Azanulbizar takes place only 42 years before The Hobbit, making the Mouth of Sauron only ~150 years old for Return of the King. Even more reasonable, that is.


Nov 9 2013, 7:08pm

Post #15 of 20 (279 views)
Sauron doesn't need a mouth. [In reply to] Can't Post

He has Benedict Cumberbatch's voice. Another "mouth" would just be extraneous.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Nov 9 2013, 7:09pm

Post #16 of 20 (275 views)
the Dark Tower is Barad Dur, never is Sauron as an entity referenced so. The name is even capitalised. [In reply to] Can't Post

which quite clearly shows the authors intent in the naming. It first rose again in 2951, 10 years after the hobbit. Prior to that the MOS was not in Saurons service, so any TH film appearance is invented.

IMO another undesirable LOTR link if he is in these films.


Nov 9 2013, 7:34pm

Post #17 of 20 (255 views)
Heehee! // [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
CoolI hope u suffer greatly at the hands of your host

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

Tol Eressea

Nov 9 2013, 7:37pm

Post #18 of 20 (266 views)
I think they need to make a stand alone.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Mouth of sauron film! Chronicles of the Mouth!

take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

Tol Eressea

Nov 9 2013, 10:13pm

Post #19 of 20 (229 views)
Where is this stated? [In reply to] Can't Post

but remember that the film makers chopped off 100 years between the fall of Erebor and The Hobbit

I remember it being stated that Smaug hasn't been seen in 60 years, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Smaug only took Erebor 60 years prior to the story. Is it stated elsewhere that they omitted 100 years?


Nov 10 2013, 5:34am

Post #20 of 20 (178 views)
LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Please let us in on any details that you may/may not know about your appearance(s). LaughLaughWink


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