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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
End Credit Songs: with or without Shore?

jtg70
Registered User

Nov 6 2013, 3:28pm

Post #1 of 15 (769 views)
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End Credit Songs: with or without Shore? Can't Post

I rarely post but I read all of the debate over Ed Sheeran on the boards and I noticed an important point wasn't brought up. Was Howard Shore involved to collaborate?

As the composer & musical voice of these films Howard Shore should be allowed to steer the ship musically in the same way PJ oversees the filmmakng process. The musical process for composing the end credit song on the LOTR films was that Howard, Peter, Fran & Phillippa discussed wishlists of vocalists they thought would fit. At that point Howard Shore would either deliver the melody, changes & arrangement (usually based on a musical idea from the score) and/or collaborate with the singer based on his score. His voice tied all of the material together.

FOTR
"May it be" Enya's phrasing was applied to a Shore melody & chord changes from the score. After she delivered her recordings Shore wrote an orchestral arrangement to tie it back to the score. This gives it a cohesiveness that makes it part of a whole.

TTT
"Gollum's Song"
The singer was hired based on the tone of her voice to perform Shore's melody over changes from the score with his arrangement.

ROTK
"Into the West" The best example of tying all of the elements featured across all three LOTR films. Nashville tuned acoustic guitar associated with Hobbits, the french horn line from ROTK. PJ, FW, PB & Shore selected Annie Lennox from a wishlist. Shore's ability to convey the perfect emotion of the closing scene of the film, the bittersweetness of the end of the tale, farewells for the cast & crew and the closing of the film series for fans.

AUJ
It's been almost a year since Neil Finn's song for AUJ & I still haven't warmed up to it even though I love the Misty Mtns theme. Mostly I feel that it's not connected enough to the score through the arrangement. The sound that Shore coaxes out of the orchestra makes it sound like a ME score: the lushness of English style strings, the tenderness of a hobbit theme on clarinet, the harshness of orcs, etc., It's missing from Finn's song. Instead it sounds like Finn's song. Also the vocal chants in the background are also very distracting & out of place stylistically.

DOS
Back to Sheeran's song. His selection doesn't pull away from the film as much as a lack of connection to the score. I don't know the themes to the DOS score so I can't evaluate it that way. However I don't hear any orchestral arrangement. It seems they left Sheeran to generate all of the ideas which keeps it separate from Shore's work. Coincidentally Sheeran's chord changes actually match Shore's four chord pattern associated with Gandal's Farewells (vi - IV - I - V.)

I've been studying, composing & performing music for over 20 years (scary, I know) and I feel that the best works take time to craft like a sculpture. You keep going back to refine and add layers. With this in mind if Sheeran's first reaction is the starting point, why not go back to it & eliminate the pop-style rhythm, bring in Shore to refine it and add an orchestral arrangement? This would allow for Sheeran's first impression remain honest & immediate but Shore would connect the sound back to his ME scores.

... Just my two cents


Cave Troll
Rivendell

Nov 6 2013, 4:20pm

Post #2 of 15 (374 views)
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Great post [In reply to] Can't Post

That's all I have to say about that. Smile


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Nov 6 2013, 4:25pm

Post #3 of 15 (370 views)
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Some good points, [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem like Shore has taken a slight step back from this trilogy....At least we still have his amazing scores to look forward to!


jtg70
Registered User

Nov 6 2013, 5:00pm

Post #4 of 15 (328 views)
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re: Great Post & other replies [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the kind words.

I think most people are hoping all six of these films fit together in a way that feels natural. The score is one but important way these films can make a whole work.

We already have a few differences that are separating it: the look of film vs. digital video, prosthetic orcs vs. cgi orcs, video game style cgi stunt/action sequences vs real, increased use of sets as replacements outdoor locations, etc.

I don't want to sound ungrateful. PJ & crew's love of Tolkien's world, in combination with the generosity of PJ & crew have shown towards fans world have yielded a great series that have affected the world. Let's hope for more of the same.

PS I want to fix some typos in my original post. Where's the edit button? lol (A symptom of me not posting enough.)


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 6:08pm

Post #5 of 15 (296 views)
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No, he was not. [In reply to] Can't Post

That is what Doug Adams said on Twitter.

I do not complain though, I love the idea of someone writing a song under the immediate influence of seeing the movie. Contrasting to you I think that this would be lessened by changing much. The song as it is does not need more ME feeling imho, it now is a good way of bringing us back from Middle-earth to reality.

As long as Shore's score is great, I am glad they did what they did :) Apart from Into the West I wasn't exactly blown away by the other songs with his involvement.


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Nov 6 2013, 6:13pm)


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 7:54pm

Post #6 of 15 (220 views)
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Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

You only have a small window of time for you to edit your post. Unsure

I simply walked into Mordor.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 8:11pm

Post #7 of 15 (196 views)
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but, one can always ask a mod to edit their post. [In reply to] Can't Post

by asking on feedback.

Even the most perfectionist of us tend to groan and live with most of our mistakes and typos. But if an edit is needed to make a something more correct (I am always leaving out 'not' in my sentences saying just the opposite of what I mean) or more clear... then we will ask.

If they (the mods) mind, they don't let on. :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 8:31pm

Post #8 of 15 (179 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

that's just getting technical Wink

I simply walked into Mordor.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 8:36pm

Post #9 of 15 (179 views)
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haha... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of us can't sleep night with our stupid typos. We *need* a resource for rectifying our mistakes.

That said... I'm typing without my glasses so forgive any mistakes in this post.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 8:52pm

Post #10 of 15 (165 views)
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I understand [In reply to] Can't Post

a bit like OCD. If I know my floor is untidy i can't get to sleep! Tongue and did you just change your profile picture? On both your posts the picture is different. I like it. Smile

I simply walked into Mordor.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2013, 9:27pm

Post #11 of 15 (172 views)
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I'm with you on the Neil Finn song. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a decent enough song, and i've always liked Finn's music, but it just doesn't feel "of a whole" with the films like all the previous songs did. Even though it has a bit of a "dwarven" feel, it feels like a seperate thing from the movie, too much like a typical pop song. And i can't imagine that this Ed Sheeran song is any better, probably more so. I'm actually avoiding listening to it so as to put off the inevitable disappointment/depression at the idea of some generic pop song at the end of a Hobbit/LotR film, no matter how decent the song might actually be.

Hopefully for the final film, they'll choose a more established singer to actually collaborate with Shore et al in the spirit of leading into the LotR trilogy and the wonderfully crafted songs that closed those films.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 9:54pm

Post #12 of 15 (137 views)
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I change it up fairly frequently. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have some of my past avatars in a 'gallery' you can find in my footer.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2013, 10:03pm

Post #13 of 15 (145 views)
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Maybe for the next film, [In reply to] Can't Post

we'll get a song that's actually about Bilbo's journey, and not about dwarves.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 10:23pm

Post #14 of 15 (130 views)
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The Road goes ever on... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I think there is quite some chance we will get a somber version of that song (not the version Bilbo sings in FotR) with TABA's credits.


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Bumpypotato
Bree

Nov 7 2013, 4:56am

Post #15 of 15 (78 views)
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Ooh! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can imagine the chills!


In Reply To
... I think there is quite some chance we will get a somber version of that song (not the version Bilbo sings in FotR) with TABA's credits.


 
 

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