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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Necromancers interest in Gandalf

NoelGallagher
Rohan


Nov 5 2013, 1:50pm

Post #1 of 21 (923 views)
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The Necromancers interest in Gandalf Can't Post

So, it looks like Gandalf is getting captured in Dol Guldur this movie.If someone can do this, it could only be the Necromancer himself...
The first thing i asked myself was: "Why dont they kill Gandalf immediately ?!" (if that is possible,though).
Does the Necromancer want to overhear him about what is going on at Erebor or for some other reasons maybe ?!
But if that happens, how is Gandalf able to escape ?! Maybe Radagast appears, the Necromancers attention wanders shortly to Radagast and in that moment Gandalf is able to do some magic and escape ?

That could indicate that Raddy probably could die in Dol Guldur -after a possible Necromancer-fight- and Gandalf is just able to take his staff away..anyhow...

Your thoughts ?


Elskidor
Rohan

Nov 5 2013, 2:19pm

Post #2 of 21 (472 views)
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Guess I have to re-watch the new trailer [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I have no idea where all this speculation is coming. I would say he wants information from him though if this is the case.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Nov 5 2013, 2:23pm

Post #3 of 21 (481 views)
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My guess is he'll ask about the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

And he better NOT, because it makes Gandalf from Fellowship look really stupid for not putting the pieces together sooner.


Elskidor
Rohan

Nov 5 2013, 2:38pm

Post #4 of 21 (446 views)
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Nah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And he better NOT, because it makes Gandalf from Fellowship look really stupid for not putting the pieces together sooner.


No, no no...PJ wouldn't do that, surely. Maybe it's just a simple question like "Why do you like Shroomhead so much, Wizzy?" or "Boxers or briefs, old man?" or possibly, "Does using Azog make my butt look fat?" or maybe even Gandalf was going to be used by Sauron just as Saruman was, but Gandalf is wiser and his will was not so easily broken?"


haarp
Rivendell


Nov 5 2013, 2:53pm

Post #5 of 21 (438 views)
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7 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we'll get to see the Necromancer and Gandalf in the same scene, someone or something else will be interrogating Gandalf on behalf of the Necromancer so it still leaves Gandalf wondering who this thing is.


Remus
Lorien

Nov 5 2013, 4:30pm

Post #6 of 21 (385 views)
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Necromancer will TALK [In reply to] Can't Post

Benedict has been cast as the voice of the Necromancer in DoS and TaBa. And Gandalf KNOWS it's Sauron in this movie. In several trailers this is evident. Gandalf quotes:


"Our enemy has returned" "He has gathered a HUGE army" etc etc and then we see Saurons eye even in the trailer. Something probably Bilbo will see i guess. But Gandalf WILL KNOW who he is and then warning the council and everyone. Like he tells to Radagast "warn them all" or something like that.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Oin K
Rivendell


Nov 5 2013, 5:11pm

Post #7 of 21 (347 views)
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Hmm, what if Gandalf's line "It is undoubtedly a trap" has a double meaning? [In reply to] Can't Post

We've already seen that Gandalf doesn't go anywhere without having a contingency plan of some sort - whether it be hitching a ride on some Eagles or acting as a diversion so the others can make their escape.

Perhaps the "trap" he's referring to is actually his own, which he plans to spring upon the Necromancer. He and Radagast go to Dol Guldur, and Gandalf goes in alone, gets himself captured, and while the Necromancer's attention is focused upon him, the rest of the White Council makes their rendezvous with Radagast and launches their assault on its defenses.

This would be a nice inversion of the popular trope of "bad guy lets himself get caught as part of his evil scheme" (see Skyfall, The Avengers, and Star Trek Into Darkness for recent examples). Also, it would very neatly prefigure Aragorn's final gambit at the Black Gates, where Sauron is distracted while the real plan unfolds behind his back at Mount Doom. I would love it if this turns out to be true here. It'd show that Sauron can be fooled by the same means more than once...

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Nov 5 2013, 6:26pm

Post #8 of 21 (293 views)
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One of the few things I liked about The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

was Radagst's portrayal. And if they kill him off, that would just suck.

And he is a Maiar afterall. Lesser in power sure, but still very powerful. Makes no sense killing him off, even by Necromancer. (Sauron hasn't regained his full strength, you know)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 5 2013, 7:41pm

Post #9 of 21 (220 views)
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I don't believe that Gandalf thought as far as you think [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Sauron has one weakness... he underestimates his enemies.

In LOTR he can't imagine that his enemies are going to destroy the One Ring instead of using it as a weapon or for themselves... well he isn't that wrong if you look at a couple of guys like Saruman,Smeagol, Isildur, Denethor, Boromir and Faramir for a short period. Even Galadriel and Gandalf seem to be interested in it's power but finally are able to resist. This is his one and ultimate weakness.
Or look at the prologue. When he is defeated by Isildur. Why did he try to grab Isildur? Why not just using his mace to finish him? Because he thinks he is invincible.

When Gandalf talks about a trap, I don't think that he is meaning his own plans. After all he is there to investigate and not to defeat Sauron... because he doesn't know it at this point (talking about movie Gandalf). I think the two Istari were locked into the fortress and than the Necromancers trap will snap shut!


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Remus
Lorien

Nov 5 2013, 9:25pm

Post #10 of 21 (168 views)
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A bit off topic [In reply to] Can't Post

But it's kinda weird how Sauron is AFRAID that anyone would overpower the Ring and use it against Sauron when like everyone else saying No one can wield it. Aragorn says it and Gandalf says it. Frodo too for example.

But maybe that's because they will turn evil & twisted IN THE END? Like after a few years? By using the Ring they maybe would be able to destroy Sauron with it? But they would become the next evil?


In my opinion NO ONE should be able to use the Ring AGAINST Sauron. Because the Ring is 50% Sauron. It's a part of him. So he should be immune against it.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 5 2013, 9:42pm

Post #11 of 21 (153 views)
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I am rather sure it won't be about the RIng... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it will be about Gandalf's meddling ;)


All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 5 2013, 10:18pm

Post #12 of 21 (145 views)
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If Gandalf is defeated and taken it HAS to be the Necromancer who does it. Anything else would be a disgusting travesty. [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is not to say they won't do it some other way. They brought Azog back from certain death, so I don't pretend to know what the hell they will or won't do, but it would be DREADFUL. The Gandalf who faced down all Nine Nazgul on Amon Sul would NOT be defeated by Wraith Lords alone at this stage when they are weaker than at the time of Rings. And orcs cornering him and defeating him would be a dozen times more revolting.

This WHOLE thing has me very concerened that they are going to go very far off the rails and damage the reputation of the character in the process.

In Reply To
I don't think we'll get to see the Necromancer and Gandalf in the same scene, someone or something else will be interrogating Gandalf on behalf of the Necromancer so it still leaves Gandalf wondering who this thing is.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 5 2013, 10:23pm

Post #13 of 21 (140 views)
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Good questions. Questions that should not have to be ask. [In reply to] Can't Post

One could always depict Sauron as unwilling to destroy the Wizard's incarnation because he knows what he is and suspects that his foe might only be returned in a mightier form, as eventually happens..


But we don't need to even go down that road. I cannot tell you how wrong it would be for Gandalf not to escape mostly on his own savvy and power, with some assist from Radagast but nothing more. Ehhhhhhhh, I don't think I like where they are going with this mess.

I always said, if they include Dol Guldur, it will either be one of my favourite scenes or the one I hate above all else in the sextology... I am fearing ever more that they will be taking the later road.

In Reply To
So, it looks like Gandalf is getting captured in Dol Guldur this movie.If someone can do this, it could only be the Necromancer himself...
The first thing i asked myself was: "Why dont they kill Gandalf immediately ?!" (if that is possible,though).
Does the Necromancer want to overhear him about what is going on at Erebor or for some other reasons maybe ?!
But if that happens, how is Gandalf able to escape ?! Maybe Radagast appears, the Necromancers attention wanders shortly to Radagast and in that moment Gandalf is able to do some magic and escape ?

That could indicate that Raddy probably could die in Dol Guldur -after a possible Necromancer-fight- and Gandalf is just able to take his staff away..anyhow...

Your thoughts ?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Remus
Lorien

Nov 5 2013, 10:24pm

Post #14 of 21 (139 views)
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It must be the Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

Like i have written before, Benedict is VOICING the Necromancer in this movie and Taba. When would the Necromancer talk if not when fighting Gandalf?


Hmm... Well.. He could come in AFTER his minions have beaten Gandalf and locked him inside the cage.... I pray that it will be the Necromancer fighting Gandalf. It makes NO SENSE. ZERO SENSE whatsoever if it were like 10 orcs chasing Gandalf in Dol Guldur and NOT the Necromancer. Like you can see in the video. Gandalf looks terrified and runs like hell and is nearly at the exist of Dol Guldur and then BAM! he turns around 360 degrees and hits something with his staff.


It must be the Necromancer.

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Olorin2607
Lorien

Nov 5 2013, 10:30pm

Post #15 of 21 (128 views)
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Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps iit is just an resurrected Zombie Thrain :P?Tongue I mean.. we still don't know where that jump known from the teaser trailer fits in. :D


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 5 2013, 10:31pm

Post #16 of 21 (137 views)
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The movie misqotes in saying no one can wield it. The Book is more clear. Only a mighty person, especially one of THe Wise [In reply to] Can't Post

could take the Ring to wield it. That person COULD use Sauron's power against him, making him a slave to the power of his own creation, if they knew what they were doing, but they would become corrupt, and their will would turn to dictatorship.

Saruman, though the movie plays it down, intended to capture the Ring for himself and force Sauron and all the world to be ordered to his ideals and will. The Ring was indeed part Sauron, but it was only quasi-sentient. It was connected to him, but not entirely so. His control over it was limited while it was away from his person, so that a powerful adversary could it against him, just as a skilled martial artist can use your own weight against you should you become unbalanced.

In Reply To
But it's kinda weird how Sauron is AFRAID that anyone would overpower the Ring and use it against Sauron when like everyone else saying No one can wield it. Aragorn says it and Gandalf says it. Frodo too for example.

But maybe that's because they will turn evil & twisted IN THE END? Like after a few years? By using the Ring they maybe would be able to destroy Sauron with it? But they would become the next evil?


In my opinion NO ONE should be able to use the Ring AGAINST Sauron. Because the Ring is 50% Sauron. It's a part of him. So he should be immune against it.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 5 2013, 10:33pm

Post #17 of 21 (131 views)
Shortcut
Agreed. If its not The Necromancer, its a damned mess. And if Gandalf doesn't escape [In reply to] Can't Post

in this film BEFORE the Council arrives, its a damned mess. I don't want to end up hating this film because they turn too much on its head in this department, I have really loved everything else I have seen Frown

In Reply To
Like i have written before, Benedict is VOICING the Necromancer in this movie and Taba. When would the Necromancer talk if not when fighting Gandalf?


Hmm... Well.. He could come in AFTER his minions have beaten Gandalf and locked him inside the cage.... I pray that it will be the Necromancer fighting Gandalf. It makes NO SENSE. ZERO SENSE whatsoever if it were like 10 orcs chasing Gandalf in Dol Guldur and NOT the Necromancer. Like you can see in the video. Gandalf looks terrified and runs like hell and is nearly at the exist of Dol Guldur and then BAM! he turns around 360 degrees and hits something with his staff.


It must be the Necromancer.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 5 2013, 10:37pm

Post #18 of 21 (125 views)
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I really [In reply to] Can't Post

like the analogy! Wink The movies do more than play it down, they show us that Saruman is trying to get on the good side of Sauron. We also know Sauron would betray Saruman in a heartbeat for the ring. In the book it's much more open to the fact that Saruman is clever enough to know he may be betrayed. The movie gives us no hint to this whatsoever.

I simply walked into Mordor.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 5 2013, 10:47pm

Post #19 of 21 (117 views)
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Thanks! And agreed on all points. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
like the analogy! Wink The movies do more than play it down, they show us that Saruman is trying to get on the good side of Sauron. We also know Sauron would betray Saruman in a heartbeat for the ring. In the book it's much more open to the fact that Saruman is clever enough to know he may be betrayed. The movie gives us no hint to this whatsoever.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Remus
Lorien

Nov 6 2013, 6:37am

Post #20 of 21 (78 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

with everything you wrote. I am really afraid that i will not like this movie so much if they screw up the Dol Guldur plot and the other parts of the movie is amazingly awesome. It will kinda cloud my judgment and i will just think about that mess of Dol Guldur... Come on PJ... Unimpressed

But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dûr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 6 2013, 8:42am

Post #21 of 21 (65 views)
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Exactly. It is my big worry. If Gandalf ends up looking badly incompotent or feeble, because [In reply to] Can't Post

he is defeated too quickly, or by too low level a foe (i.e. The Nazgul in the absence of Sauron etc.), or absent an impressive display of counter attacks, magical included, on his part, or because he ends up seemingly hopelessly trapped with no contingency plan (it was understandable in Orthanc, where he didn't have any reason to think he would need to be prepared for a battle or to escape), any of the above, it could really suck all of the joy out of the rest of what looks to be a pretty excellent film, for me. I REALLY don't want that.

In Reply To
with everything you wrote. I am really afraid that i will not like this movie so much if they screw up the Dol Guldur plot and the other parts of the movie is amazingly awesome. It will kinda cloud my judgment and i will just think about that mess of Dol Guldur... Come on PJ... Unimpressed


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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