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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
CHOWS Chapter: Bilbo's Choice
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Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 26 2013, 5:01pm

Post #26 of 43 (140 views)
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The Dwarves and the song... [In reply to] Can't Post


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The acapella is beautiful. Richard Armitage said in an interview that he’s a trained singer and had to dial it back for this scene, but it’s still lovely. The lighting, the camera work, the sound all make for a great scene. The Dwarven instruments from the book would have been an unnecessary complication. I agree here 100%. The acapella translation was a great choice, especially in light of RA's singing skills. I think the whole rush of special, magical instruments would have complicated the simplicity of the scene. Hopefully later, in Erebor, we will get to see this sort of playing: but for this moment I think voice was the right choice.

This is another scene in which their knowledge of their characters' back stories and individual traits enable the actors to enrich this scene without any spoken words. Though all the Dwarves are drawn in and their hearts touched, they react differently Thorin starts off looking into the fire (and looking magnificent), then turns to face the group, making him part of it instead of separate and probably engaging the others more. This group of individuals is moved by the events of the past and brought together for their shared purpose.

I think that Balin is fatalistic and sad rather than optimistic about their prospects but is resigned. After a moment he rises to sing with the others, signifying his commitment to Thorin and the quest.
I agree! I still don't think he is quite 'won over' and that's why he looks so sad in the opening, and also why he seems to resolutely NOT look at Thorin; afraid of what the quest might bring to him.

Dwalin also doesn't look too happy but seems resolute. Like his brother he probably has a realistic idea of what their chances of success are. Again, agreed. Plus I note he focuses so solemnly on Thorin - clearly he loves his friend of a lifetime, and is also contemplating what might be lost. But like his brother loyalty wins. I think his crossed-arms show his controlled emotion: he will stand, and mouth the words, but displaying too much is not in Dwalin's nature.

Dwalin, Balin and Gloin look grim and lost in memory. I would expect them to have been at Erebor. Probably Oin as well of course but I can’t remember him in this scene. Oin is very shadowed - and I wonder, as the Company's purported healer, if he had experiences at Erebor that we may see later in flashback. I do think that by Gloin's face, he saw it happen!

Bifur rises first, perhaps showing us that he's not as out of it as he looks. Certainly he's in there fighting when required. Yes, that's what I take from this too: that's why I love that SPJ gave him that first-to-stand role.

I always supposed that Bofur sang more prominently because James Nesbitt can hold a tune. I don't know why Bofur remained seated with his back to Thorin.
I like how Dori looks at Ori’s rapt face and turns away; maybe he had hoped to prevent his little brother from going on the journey and was realizing that he had failed.
Bofur seems lost in memory, unable to move? VERY interesting take on Dori looking at Ori! I never considered that point...the bookish little brother who should have stayed home, and Dori worried about him. Excellent and novel interpretation here Noria!

Gandalf is enigmatic as usual. I wouldn't say that he’s confident but is still hopeful that Bilbo’s Tookish side will win through. He probably knows the song will help. As for Bilbo, I think the song touched his Tookish side though he's still resisting. Maybe he's regretting thet he "can't" go running off into the blue. I like Gandalf and Bilbo shot separately. It feels authentic that this deeply personal moment would be for the Company, and not for the hosts - trusted or no. Maybe this hope you mention is what Gandalf is referring to later when he says, "I never doubted you..." when Bilbo shows (*and* he bet money on it!)

The sparks flying up out of the chimney is a beautiful image. It reminded me of what the song was about, the attack of the dragon, and of course of hopes and dreams extinguished in the dark. Yes, well said...I have the 'dream' feeling about it too. In a big chilly world with only pinpoints of light!

For me this whole sequence, Bilbo and Gandalf, Thorin and Balin and the Misty Mountains song are really what the movie is about. Angelic Angelic Nice!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 26 2013, 5:02pm

Post #27 of 43 (122 views)
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This *needs* to be a Holiday song!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post


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Jingle beards, jingle beards, jingle all the way!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 26 2013, 5:03pm

Post #28 of 43 (128 views)
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Not all who wander are lost...some OT is just fine!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post


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As for Spooks- aaaagh! All the way through those last two episodes I was still hoping that it was all a mistake and just another under cover job for Lucas. The way RA portrayed those emotions was awesome. And I still couldn't hate Lucas- he had certainly paid in part for his crime in the Russian jail. RA really nailed it imo
Sorry, totally OT hereWink


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 28 2013, 8:44pm

Post #29 of 43 (119 views)
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Really beautiful moments! [In reply to] Can't Post

Some thoughts about the scene between Bilbo and Gandalf:

This conversation between Gandalf and Bilbo is a really touching moment. I really like how the story of Bullroarer Took was added into the script and told in such a believable way. Ian really did a great job delivering the lines. I think here it allowed the audience to learn that there is something more to Bilbo’s family compared to other families in the Shire and perhaps what partially influenced Gandalf’s choice and belief in Bilbo being part of the quest for Erebor. It’s nice to include the picture on the wall as there are so many objects around Bag End that help make the set look more like a person’s home. It helps the audience relate to the character of Bilbo since we all have pictures of friends and family around our homes.

Interestingly enough both Gandalf and the window are to the left hand side of the frame at the start of the scene, perhaps to suggest to the audience the idea of magic and mystery. I like how Gandalf is standing in this scene while he talks to Bilbo, not towering over him in a frightening way, but still trying to ensure Bilbo listens to him. I think the aim of the story is to remind Bilbo of his ancestry and the idea that Bilbo’s adventure, if he goes, would be worthy of songs and tales of his own. It’s the fairytale-like attitude that the people of the Shire have about the world; that they sit and listen, drawn into the tales and then dream of their own adventures and Gandalf uses this to try to convince Bilbo to join the dwarves.

I like Gandalf’s line that the ‘world is not in your books and maps. It's out there.’ It again shows us that deep down Bilbo has a longing to go out into the world, a fact already hinted to us when the dwarves arrive at Bag End and Bilbo asks one of them not to touch the map. I presume it’s the map that is described in the book that Bilbo marked all of his favourite walks on. Already there is evidence there for Gandalf and the audience to interpret as a hobbit who is a little different in his attitude with regards to the world beyond the Shire.

However there is reluctance in Bilbo and in this scene he really tries to assert the fact that he is a ‘Baggins of Bag End’. However, like in the previous scenes where he tries to assert his authority and have his way and fails, he almost loses here as well since I think Gandalf’s story of Bullroarer Took sparks a little interest again in Bilbo, not so much the actual story though, but Gandalf’s line that Bilbo will have ‘a tale or two to tell of his own.’

I really love Gandalf’s line that ‘All good stories deserve embellishment’ when Bilbo accuses him for making his tale up about how the game of golf was invented. It’s a gentle humour that creates a nice moment where these two characters sit and have a conversation together like friends would. It’s a warming scene.

I like Gandalf’s mention that he remembered a little hobbit who would go out looking for elves and would come back late ‘trailing mud and fireflies’. It is such a sweet image and immediately gives the viewers a small back story that conveys that deep down Bilbo wants an adventure. I like how Gandalf mentions the mud since in the scene with ‘Blunt the Knives’ Bilbo complained that the dwarves had tread mud into the carpet. It puts down Bilbo’s complaints since he used to do it too. It makes you wonder what Belladonna thought of Bilbo out looking for elves. Would she ever have worried or would she not have minded? Did Belladonna ever scold Bilbo for treading mud into her carpets? Was she over protective about the antiques in her house or was she the kind of person who didn’t fuss over things like that?



Did this conversation have an influence on Bilbo? I think it must have done since it reminded him of the hobbit he had once been and deep down still is. I think Gandalf’s line about the world not being in his maps but is out there perhaps makes him realise that that’s the truth and that if he doesn’t take his chance now then he never will venture into the world and he might regret never going. However, I think it is a combination of things. Bilbo evidently has a longing to go on adventures and that longing is deep, and strong. I think it is also a combination of what happened in the previous scene when Thorin speaks about reclaiming their homeland and when Bilbo listens to their song. I think it makes him realise that he would be joining them for a good cause and a part of him wants to help the dwarves and a part of him realises this is his opportunity to travel.

Gandalf’s choice of answering ‘no’ instead of yes is an interesting one. I think it shows that Gandalf, for all his mischief and tricks, is still an honest character. He doesn’t want Bilbo to join a quest because of a potentially false promise. He desires Bilbo to make the decision of his own free will aware of the danger that he might not return. Gandalf has never lied about anything, he has always told everyone what he thought was the right thing to tell them. He likes people to be willing to do a task rather than forced which was why in the book FOTR he supported Pippin’s desire to go with Frodo over sending someone else and I think the films carry this idea through about Gandalf’s belief in willingness and good will being a key to defeating evil.

Interestingly enough this scene therefore sets up the mood of the next conversation between Balin and Thorin where Thorin tells Balin he’d rather have a small company loyal and willing over a large army. A small sign, perhaps that he and Gandalf think alike about willingness, and good will being a main necessity for the quest.


Some points about the scene between Balin and Thorin:

I really like the lighting in this scene. Balin and Thorin speak quietly, their figures in the shadows. I think it helps convey to the viewers that both characters have their doubts and darkness surrounds both these characters presumably due to what happened in their past. We know that Balin and Thorin witnessed the dragon attack at Erebor, for Balin it has made him reserved and cautious about journeying back there. Thorin is perhaps cautious too, but the desires of his lost family motivate him and drive him onwards to try and fulfil them. I like the fact that Bilbo’s home is slowly getting darker, far darker than it ever was in previous scenes, a sign that the night is slowly passing and also a sign his house is becoming ever more like the environment the dwarves are used to.

I like how this moment here has the three candles. While it frames the characters I think it is also symbolic of the past, present and future. The future, I think is represented by the candle beside Thorin. Also, as I mentioned in last week’s CHOW the shape of the ceilings in Bag End are like an arch shape which can be symbolic for bridges and that there is a way across. At the end of this scene Balin gives Thorin a pat on the arm and tells him that they ‘will see it done’. The fact that Balin makes this motion shows he is trying to find the way across to help Thorin fulfil his quest and a sign that he is willing to step into the future that lies with Thorin.


Balin still has his doubts, but I think he understands what drives Thorin onward and through a bond of friendship that exists between them, Balin is willing to go with Thorin and stand by his side. I think like many free peoples in Middle-Earth the dwarves take their friendships very seriously and I think it is for that reason that Balin will stand by Thorin despite his doubts.



Misty Mountains Cold:

This is another great moment from the film and I think it is a moment that a lot of people remember from the book, partly because of the song which speaks of what had once been and the dragon fire that destroyed it and partly, perhaps more importantly from the effect it had on Bilbo.

The choice of singing style fits perfectly and beautifully with the book. The lighting even matches the book so well.


Quote
And suddenly first one and then another began to sing as they played, deep-throated singing of the dwarves in the deep places of their ancient homes.



I particularly like how they have Thorin sing the part he sings on his own in the book right at the end of the chapter that only Bilbo seems to hear from the next room. It is those lyrics he hears as he drifts off to sleep.

The Lord of the Rings saw a lot of magic from elves and wizards. Could this song perhaps be a form of dwarf magic? It doesn’t provide healing as such, but it seems to evoke memories of the past.

The song itself certainly has an impact on the dwarves. In the film it comes across as a song that remembers the tragedies that happened to the dwarves and seems almost like a lament for their treasures and people that were lost when the dragon attacked. It seems to pull the dwarves together as a moment to remember the past and look to the future, which is shown by the way the dwarves stand almost as though out of respect for those lost.

It is interesting how Thorin is standing nearest to the fire and the dwarves move closer to the fire. Perhaps the idea that they are about to play with fire is being suggested here.

Kili’s expression seems to suggest that this song is reminding him of the seriousness of the quest. Gloin seems lost in thought, perhaps thinking of his home and family that he is leaving behind to venture on this quest. Balin is amongst the first to sing with Thorin which shows he is resolved to follow Thorin, and perhaps as well it is a reminder that he out of all of them witnessed the dragon attack and what Erebor was before. Thorin’s own movements suggest that he is remembering the past very strongly in this scene since he starts off staring into the fire. He then looks around and looks upon the others joining in and I think he feels moved that they rise to join with him. I like how this song seems to draw the dwarves together.

Gandalf remains apart, but is in the next room and I think the haunting voices have an effect on him as well. It is almost as though he is feeling the dangers of what is to come while at the same time in his own way, he is remembering the past and what was lost. He believes that this quest has to be successful to fulfil a greater purpose. I wonder if he is for a moment wondering whether this is the right thing to do. The sound of their voices is sorrowful and beautiful and it perhaps would make Gandalf wonder for a moment if what he had helped set in motion was the right thing. Perhaps he wonders after the song finishes what effect the song had on the hobbit.

I like how Bilbo is shown in another room listening to the song as it drifts through the hobbit hole. I really like his expression which seems a little torn at first and firm, perhaps determined still not to be taken in. Then as the camera pans to the fire it looks a little remorseful and almost daydreaming. I think they have really made an effort to capture moments from the book here.

Quote
As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick. He looked out of the window. The stars were out in a dark sky above the trees. He thought of the jewels of the dwarves shining in dark caverns.


I think this song did have a strong effect on Bilbo. We are shown this in the book and in the film it is hinted to the viewers by the way Bilbo’s expression changes as the song goes on. I think Gandalf’s words helped awaken a longing in Bilbo as did the previous scene where Thorin makes his speech and Gandalf brings forth the map. The song in the book awakened a longing in Bilbo where he could feel their desire for jewels and longed to travel with them and see great things in the world and do and be someone other than the respectable hobbit of Bag End.

I also really like the way the shot changes to the night air and the stars above the chimney, again a symbolic idea of desire for adventure. It even goes so well with the dreamlike state the song seems to send Bilbo into. The wisps of smoke and ashes coming out of the chimney creates such a beautiful, serene moment. The idea of being on the outside looking in. It is a nice reminder that all this is taking place in this little hobbit hole. It looks quite magical.

Truly a magical scene. Thanks for hosting this discussion Brethil! Wink

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Kim
Valinor


Oct 28 2013, 9:40pm

Post #30 of 43 (108 views)
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Wow Silwen, what a wonderful post! [In reply to] Can't Post

So many lovely and insightful comments - there are too many to respond to all at once! However, I would like to respond to this one:

"Thorin’s own movements suggest that he is remembering the past very strongly in this scene since he starts off staring into the fire. He then looks around and looks upon the others joining in and I think he feels moved that they rise to join with him."

I agree with you here as I do think that Thorin started singing for himself as he stared into the fire, lost in his memories, and was almost surprised when the other dwarves joined him. I don't think it was calculated on his part, and that he was gratified and moved when the other dwarves joined him. By joining in the song, they were displaying their "willing hearts" to join him in his quest, and putting his hand on his heart was a natural reaction to show how much it meant to him.

Evil


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 29 2013, 12:45am

Post #31 of 43 (109 views)
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Thanks to YOU Silwen! [In reply to] Can't Post

What wonderful and thoughtful post!

I like your many points about framing and the subconscious symbolism that goes into creating these shots. I find myself agreeing with Darkstone when he points out that SPJ does not do these things by accident...there is careful consideration into the layout and composition that both hangs together within the singular film and in this case also strikes a chord I think in tying in the scenes to LOTR. Much of the staging in Bag End is around the arches: the bridge element, the sign of change and transition. Which bucolic and peaceful Bag End is, in unexpected ways through Bilbo and Frodo's lives.

I agree - trailing mud and fireflies is an adorable and whimsical image of young Bilbo! Such a contrast to gravity-defying 'spinster' Bilbo stuck in is chair!

I like your point about Belladonna Took worrying about mud...I wonder if it was Bungo who was more fussy about the mud? I just get the feeling that the way Gandalf mentions Belladonna she might have been a bit special! But that 'mud on the carpets' fuss he makes clearly comes from SOMEONE in Bilbo's past! (Silwen, this sounds like a Symposium theory to be worked up!)

Agreed about how much that little line of truth - a bit unexpected, as Sir Ian subtly plays that 'no' almost like it will be a 'yes' - reveals so much about Gandalf's character and his inner faith and integrity. Also about how as the scenes shift later, the lighting changes as our external cue to time and the passing of the evening.

Great summation of the net effect of the Misty Mountains song. It brings Thorin and the Company close in together (when they were clearly showing signs of pulling apart.) I love the hand raised to Thorin's breast particularly. And he does look both a bit surprised and gratified, and very touched, when the Company joins him in song.

And that magical close of the sparks in the chill night. Magical is quite the perfect word isn't it?

SmileSmile

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 29 2013, 6:35pm

Post #32 of 43 (92 views)
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Another one of my all-time favourite scenes from The Hobbit (I think we all know why) [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf and Bilbo debate Bilbo's involvement the Quest.
Gandalf is persuasive, but Bilbo is quite resistant. How much do you think this conversation influenced Bilbo's choice to follow the Company? Was it the primary influence or do you see something else as stronger?

I think this was a very influential conversation as he is trying to convince Bilbo to “come out of his shell” and see what the ‘real’ world is like – where he can witness with his own eyes what the world beyond his home is like (and can perhaps tell tales of his own about it).
This is one of my favourite scenes as we get a “sneak peek” [as it were] of what Bilbo was like as a child, pottering around the woods in search of elves and coming home late at night trailing mud into the carpets. And there was Bilbo complaining about the dwarves trodding mud into his carpet *tuts*!

What do you think of Gandalf's choice not to give the answer "yes" - the answer that would have served his own immediate and weighty need?
I think he says “no” because he wants to tell him the truth (since wizards never seem to lie), and let Bilbo make up his own mind on accompanying the dwarves or not.

A key scene: Balin and Thorin in the hall. It is a very private, intimate exchange, and they appear to switch roles back-and-forth as counselor and counselled, strong and vulnerable, in this scene.
Does it seem to finally settle the shadow of conflict between Balin and Thorin at the table earlier, as to whether Balin can accept the Quest and stand by Thorin once and for all? Or do you think Balin still has doubts?

I think Balin and Thorin come to some agreement in this scene, but I do believe Balin is still doubtful (as he seems to be older [and wiser] than the others) because he has witnessed the dragon taking Erebor, seen its wrath, and obviously knows this may be a Quest they may not be able to return from. But, the fact is he trusts Thorin and understands his needs of returning to his home, and I find it sweet that he says he'll “see it done”

Is this a unique and trusting relationship between Thorin and Balin, or is this a window into the soul of Dwarven culture: intense loyalty and private pain?
I find their discussion quite intriguing (I keep dreaming that I am going to go after Bilbo and pause as I hear Thorin and Balin talking, and I listen in on them Sly) since they never seem to voice their own private problems aloud. It seems their pride comes before everything/everyone else.
I think a good example of this is in the prologue when we see Thrór in his “Gold Room (shall it put it that way?)”. The camera pans to reveal that Thorin is witnessing this, and he shrinks back into the shadows – is this a sign that even though he knows what's going on, he does not want to confront his grandfather?

Finally, the magnificent scene in which Thorin leads the Company in song.
Firstly, what did you think of the choice of acapella for this rendition?

I particularly loved the humming. It seemed to set the sinister, dark mood for me. I felt like I was under some spell. I actually feel sorry for Thorin as it is a song concerning the day Smaug took Erebor and his longing to go back and reclaim his mountain, and it is filled with so much sorrow yet was beautifully sang.
As a side note~ I must say Richard Armitage's voice is amazing! Smile

Thorin's song has impacted all the Dwarves in the room; Dwarves moved around, their eyes and their postures told stories. What patterns can you see in the above reactions?
- For example, with the brothers Ori, Nori and Dori?
- What do Balin's actions say about how he is feeling about the Quest?
- Bifur rising first. Does this change your perceptions of him from earlier in the film?
- What does Thorin himself tell you with his movements?
- Dwalin's reaction is complex and multilayered. What's happening here?
- Our chipper class clown, Bofur: quite a different view here isn't it?
- Can you tell who was at the Mountain the day Smaug came from their reactions? Or no?
- The net reaction to Thorin's singing - what do you see?

I was mesmerised by Thorin, myself – who wasn't? Tongue
Well... quite a lot of analysing here
Dori seems a little surprised Ori is taking this quite seriously (I think perhaps Ori, like Bilbo, is very naïve but he has come to grips with what exactly they're all in for quickly) and he's staring into the fire somewhat vacantly. Nori is heeding the words, I think, and trying to imagine what this Quest is going to be like.
Balin seems somewhat shaky, but is singing with Thorin nonetheless – a proof of his loyalty (being the first to rise and sing).
I like how Bifur is already staring into the fire, before they have even started singing – it may have been coincidental but I do find it touching. I really feel sorry for him.
I love the fact Thorin's the one who is always setting the example, and singing, and is the one who is resting his arm on the fireplace (I just love anything to do with fire). He's the “spotlight (as it were)”, the one we can all clearly see [for obvious reasons – I mean you wouldn't have a main character standing in the background, now would you? Tongue]. He's looking into the fire, (perhaps painfully) recalling the incidents and pouring his emotions out into the song. I really like the way he turns, as if for support of his “friends”, as Balin has just joined in with the song.
And then we have that epic moment [enough said Wink]: when they all rise and sing as one.
Dwalin beforehand had an unreadable face [still does] but the way he folds his arms clearly states that he is ready for action and is going to protect his leader.
I like how Bofur's voice, as he sings, becomes one of the main “vocals” and we can hear him clearly, yet he has not risen to his feet and is facing away from the fire and more towards the window. I'm thinking of the “we don't belong anywhere” scene here because even though he does not seem to understand what a home really is, he understands the truth behind the words.
I think Balin, Dwalin and Thorin are the three main ones (Balin and Thorin we know witnessed the Mountain taken by Smaug) but Dwalin’s sad expression seems to tell me that he perhaps recalls the events too.
I love the overall reaction as, when they rise, they seem to move towards the fire, and then the camera moves to the outdoors where the smoke hovers up into the night sky, as if trying to bring the events in the first chapter of the novel to life [as Silwen_Peredhil stated above Wink].

Gandalf later says he did not doubt Bilbo joining. Yet as the Dwarves sing, do you think Gandalf is feeling at all confident?
I think this song gave him the time (in perhaps a long while) to think over some of the things that are in his mind. I believe he's just trying to think over the journey, once they leave Bag-End [with or without Bilbo]. Poor Gandalf – he has a lot on his mind.

Touching again on influences on Bilbo: how much do you think the song had upon him? In relation to Gandalf's words earlier - more influence or less?
I believe he was thinking over Gandalf’s words when they started singing, which perhaps encouraged him even more to go with them.


These were great questions, Brethil. I really enjoyed answering them!
Thanks for posting. Wink

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 30 2013, 12:44am

Post #33 of 43 (89 views)
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Great responses Morningstar! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

A key scene: Balin and Thorin in the hall. It is a very private, intimate exchange, and they appear to switch roles back-and-forth as counselor and counselled, strong and vulnerable, in this scene.
Does it seem to finally settle the shadow of conflict between Balin and Thorin at the table earlier, as to whether Balin can accept the Quest and stand by Thorin
once and for all? Or do you think Balin still has doubts?
I think Balin and Thorin come to some agreement in this scene, but I do believe Balin is still doubtful (as he seems to be older [and wiser] than the others) because he has witnessed the dragon taking Erebor, seen its wrath, and obviously knows this may be a Quest they may not be able to return from. But, the fact is he trusts Thorin and understands his needs of returning to his home, and I find it sweet that he says he'll “see it done”
So it reflects the sacrifice too, that Balin sees as perhaps coming in the Quest. I wonder here, pictured a one of the oldest Dwarves, if he has a sense of himself not making it all of the way, of not being there for Thorin at the end of it all...ironic really. I agree, he has seen the dragon so he knows what they are up against - so I agree, a very big and very devoted leap of faith in 'seeing it done'.

Is this a unique and trusting relationship between Thorin and Balin, or is this a window into the soul of Dwarven culture: intense loyalty and private pain?
I find their discussion quite intriguing (I keep dreaming that I am going to go after Bilbo and pause as I hear Thorin and Balin talking, and I listen in on them Sly) since they never seem to voice their own private problems aloud. It seems their pride comes before everything/everyone else.
I think a good example of this is in the prologue when we see Thrór in his “Gold Room (shall it put it that way?)”. The camera pans to reveal that Thorin is witnessing this, and he shrinks back into the shadows – is this a sign that even though he knows what's going on, he does not want to confront his grandfather?
Nice tie in here! True, he Thorin sees and is troubled, but out of respect? privacy? he chooses to simply retreat. Plus in the hierarchy of the culture Thorin as merely a young Prince might have gotten his ears boxed for confronting Thror (and I have a feeling their culture does have respect dynamics like that inherent in within it).

Finally, the magnificent scene in which Thorin leads the Company in song.
Firstly, what did you think of the choice of acapella for this rendition?

I particularly loved the humming. It seemed to set the sinister, dark mood for me. I felt like I was under some spell. I actually feel sorry for Thorin as it is a song concerning the day Smaug took Erebor and his longing to go back and reclaim his mountain, and it is filled with so much sorrow yet was beautifully sang.
As a side note~ I must say Richard Armitage's voice is amazing
! Smile Agree with all this...Laugh


Balin seems somewhat shaky, but is singing with Thorin nonetheless – a proof of his loyalty (being the first to rise and sing). I note that too; I think the reason he doesn't look right at Thorin is out of fear and love for him, but when he finally decides to rise it is a testament to his loyalty and maybe his political judgment - as an older and wiser counselor he knows his support of Thorin may carry weight that the Company needs to see.
I like how Bifur is already staring into the fire, before they have even started singing – it may have been coincidental but I do find it touching. I really feel sorry for him. hat amazing is how the role is played flat (and just spot-on for the injury type) by WK, yet he still manages to convey Bifur to us, and make us feel for him.

Dwalin beforehand had an unreadable face [still does] but the way he folds his arms clearly states that he is ready for action and is going to protect his leader. Dwalin doesn't give much away does he? I wonder if his concerns though aren't similar to his brothers - is the risk worth the gamble? But he will choose to follow Thorin...not throwing any roses about it though. Laugh
I love the overall reaction as, when they rise, they seem to move towards the fire, and then the camera moves to the outdoors where the smoke hovers up into the night sky, as if trying to bring the events in the first chapter of the novel to life [as Silwen_Peredhil stated above Wink]. So true - in miniature, in a nice safe Bag End translated sort of way...easy to be a bit wistful and heroic in front of the fire, when the Dragon is leagues away. THAT might be what down-to-earth Balin and Dwalin are contemplating. (Reminds me of Eomer talking of Merry facing battle. Wonder if these veterans worry that maybe the younger, less battle-hardened members of the Company may be overwhelmed when it comes to it...?)

Gandalf later says he did not doubt Bilbo joining. Yet as the Dwarves sing, do you think Gandalf is feeling at all confident?
I think this song gave him the time (in perhaps a long while) to think over some of the things that are in his mind. I believe he's just trying to think over the journey, once they leave Bag-End [with or without Bilbo]. Poor Gandalf – he has a lot on his mind. He does doesn't he? More even than he knows...I think he had only a subconscious idea for the importance of bringing Bilbo along - but he knows it IS important!


These were great questions, Brethil. I really enjoyed answering them!
Thanks for posting. Wink
Thanks Morningstar!!! (And didn't we fall four pages back awfully quickly??!!)CrazyLaugh


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 30 2013, 4:39pm

Post #34 of 43 (65 views)
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Oh, thank you Kim! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really appreciate your compliments. It's made my day. Smile
I thought you might pick Thorin to talk about, and I completely understand why.
I really like how Thorin starts off staring into the fire . I agree it seems as though he is lost in his memories, and since we know what he went through it is a really moving moment for everyone. Wink

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 30 2013, 4:51pm

Post #35 of 43 (65 views)
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Thank you. :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Magical is quite the perfect word isn't it?

It certainly is.


Thank you for your compliment. I'm really glad you liked my post. It made my day.

With regards to where Bilbo got his fussy nature from I think I agree with you that it was probably from his father - the Baggins side of the family rather than the Took. The Tooks were obviously more adventurous and therefore could be said to be more fun and less fussy. Gandalf obviously though Belladonna special and a reason to involve her son in the Quest. I do not think she would have been that fussy - Belladonna did have a large number of brothers and sisters after all. Smile

The Misty Mountains Cold scene is so well done and so beautiful. A lot of emotions in this scene are told through facial expressions. I really enjoy these moments in films. I think a lot of the time, the things that go unsaid but are apparent in facial expressions carry a lot of weight and importance to the story. Even the end of the scene with the sparks from the chimney is effective and a really beautiful moment to hold onto before the scene changes.

And this post, I believe, takes me to Rivendell. Smile
Thanks (again) Brethil.

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 30 2013, 8:27pm

Post #36 of 43 (64 views)
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Yes, I see you in Rivendell!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats!!!! SmileAngelic

Was so glad to read all your thoughts - you made my day too! All the participation has been so enjoyable.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 30 2013, 8:32pm

Post #37 of 43 (68 views)
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All I really have to add is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the best scene of the film, and in my top 5 scenes of all 4 Middle-earth films released so far. Evil

Everything about it is really great. The acting, writing, and filming etc. are all top notch.



Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 30 2013, 9:05pm

Post #38 of 43 (55 views)
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Great summary Daniel... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is the best scene of the film, and in my top 5 scenes of all 4 Middle-earth films released so far. Evil

Everything about it is really great. The acting, writing, and filming etc. are all top notch.




I agree. It would work amazingly well in any film, but I think it has all the feel and soul of Middle-earth as it was intended. And such a showcase for the depth and complexity of the Dwarves as a people, all done without any dialogue at all.

Agreed - I think its a masterful bit of filmmaking. Angelic

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 30 2013, 9:46pm

Post #39 of 43 (55 views)
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Aww, thank you, Brethil. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I find their discussion quite intriguing (I keep dreaming that I am going to go after Bilbo and pause as I hear Thorin and Balin talking, and I listen in on them Sly) since they never seem to voice their own private problems aloud. It seems their pride comes before everything/everyone else.
I think a good example of this is in the prologue when we see Thrór in his “Gold Room (shall it put it that way?)”. The camera pans to reveal that Thorin is witnessing this, and he shrinks back into the shadows – is this a sign that even though he knows what's going on, he does not want to confront his grandfather?
Nice tie in here! True, he Thorin sees and is troubled, but out of respect? privacy? he chooses to simply retreat. Plus in the hierarchy of the culture Thorin as merely a young Prince might have gotten his ears boxed for confronting Thror (and I have a feeling their culture does have respect dynamics like that inherent in within it).


Balin seems somewhat shaky, but is singing with Thorin nonetheless – a proof of his loyalty (being the first to rise and sing). I note that too; I think the reason he doesn't look right at Thorin is out of fear and love for him, but when he finally decides to rise it is a testament to his loyalty and maybe his political judgment - as an older and wiser counselor he knows his support of Thorin may carry weight that the Company needs to see.

Dwalin beforehand had an unreadable face [still does] but the way he folds his arms clearly states that he is ready for action and is going to protect his leader. Dwalin doesn't give much away does he? I wonder if his concerns though aren't similar to his brothers - is the risk worth the gamble? But he will choose to follow Thorin...not throwing any roses about it though. Laugh

I think this song gave [Gandalf] the time (in perhaps a long while) to think over some of the things that are in his mind. I believe he's just trying to think over the journey, once they leave Bag-End [with or without Bilbo]. Poor Gandalf – he has a lot on his mind. He does doesn't he? More even than he knows...I think he had only a subconscious idea for the importance of bringing Bilbo along - but he knows it IS important!


I really love the way you have expanded my points - using words I was trying to find when answering the questions! Thanks for that. Smile

(You can thank the weird posts about Nazgul Blades and Epilogue ideas for TABA. It is worth stopping by this thread though. Truly a pleasure to answer this, Brethil - talking to real appreciative fans of The Hobbit, analysing the film bit by bit [no offence to other posts, of course]! Wink)

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 31 2013, 12:27am

Post #40 of 43 (51 views)
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I agree.. and feel lucky to enjoy it all! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Truly a pleasure to answer this, Brethil - talking to real appreciative fans of The Hobbit, analysing the film bit by bit [no offence to other posts, of course]! Wink)




Especially with the many brilliant TORnadoes who are enjoying the journey as well. Smile

Of course there are a range of opinions, and that's expected and perfectly fine...but I agree with you Morningstar, it is a pleasure to be able to discuss the scenes this way with fans who are happy and who do appreciate the work! (I rather like being happy in my hobbies and the things I love - so I feel very fortunate.)

This CHOWS idea was a great way to present the film and discuss it. Its so 'fresh' in all our minds (unlike LOTR) that really new and novel ways of looking at a scene come up with every week's post. I know I found views in just this one scene I had never considered...it enhances the complexity for me, and I love that.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 31 2013, 5:54pm

Post #41 of 43 (45 views)
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Agree 100% with you there. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Of course there are a range of opinions, and that's expected and perfectly fine...but I agree with you Morningstar, it is a pleasure to be able to discuss the scenes this way with fans who are happy and who do appreciate the work! (I rather like being happy in my hobbies and the things I love - so I feel very fortunate.)


Of course, we are all expected to find all these opinions (especially on the forums) but when we all talk about the one thing [no haters, no one-worded answers, no crazy off-topic discussion] we all love - The Hobbit - and get to give our opinions on it (whether it is a summary [like Daniel] or huge detailed paragraphs [looking at you, Silwen!]). Wink

I really love the idea of, like the SCOD, talking about a particular part of the film, giving great questions and receiving mind-blowing answers. Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Nunilo
Bree


Oct 31 2013, 11:28pm

Post #42 of 43 (34 views)
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The sparks [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the shot of the sparks is beautiful. I think the sparks show a nice contrast between the peaceful innocence of the Shire and the grand quest the dwarves are planning right there under everyone's noses. All the hobbits are going about their daily lives happily unaware of the forthcoming events in Middle Earth, and it shows the massive leap Bilbo made in choosing to leave "all the comforts of home" to go on such a foreign expedition with a group of people so different to what he is used to. He really is stepping out into the real world.


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 1 2013, 12:52am

Post #43 of 43 (38 views)
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Nice take on the spark shot Nunilo! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree that the shot of the sparks is beautiful. I think the sparks show a nice contrast between the peaceful innocence of the Shire and the grand quest the dwarves are planning right there under everyone's noses. All the hobbits are going about their daily lives happily unaware of the forthcoming events in Middle Earth, and it shows the massive leap Bilbo made in choosing to leave "all the comforts of home" to go on such a foreign expedition with a group of people so different to what he is used to. He really is stepping out into the real world.




I like how you point out that in the secret planning if that night all that could be seen were the sparks (so they serve a literal and figurative purpose there) and the rest of the quiet and rather clueless Shire is probably sound asleep (*also* literally and figuratively!!)

Very satisfying image there...Cool

I know when I first watched the film that bit stuck with me, though when its fresh and new one doesn't always know why. But I see in this thread that shot has brought out so many feelings and responses. It really does strike a chord in all of us I think.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!




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