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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How can AUJ:EE NOT acknowledge the eagles in some way??

Shadow&Flame
Registered User

Oct 22 2013, 3:22pm

Post #1 of 20 (967 views)
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How can AUJ:EE NOT acknowledge the eagles in some way?? Can't Post

Hey everyone - I've been following this site since 2001 and this is my very first post! I feel oddly compelled to bring up something that's been troubling me, especially now that it sounds like there won't be EE time dedicated to at least mentioning the eagles at the end of AUJ. (And I'm glad I have a great forum here to chime in if possible!)

Simply put, AUJ's climax had our heroes in dire peril, and they barely escape in a stunning scene thanks to a seemingly random moth/butterfly summoning a flock of eagles who save our heroes, fly them away, drop them off at a random location, and then fly away - with no explanation or even a line of "what the heck was that all about?" I was sure that PJ had cut any reference to the eagles when I observed the weird transition between Thorin recovering and hugging Bilbo and then Gwahir flying away and the group silently turning to the Lonely Mt. in the distance.

In terms of the first movie of the series, which should be able to be viewed as a stand-alone movie leading into the other five of the epic saga, how do you base your climax around the heated Azog battle and then have your heroes whisked away by a random pack of eagles? I think I'm mostly irked because this was PJ's golden chance to introduce the eagles (even with a simple line or two) so that all those armchair viewers out there who have been questioning "why don't the eagles fly Frodo to Mt. Doom?" and "why don't the eagles fly the dwarves to Erebor?" or even "what's the deal with the eagles?" could have some sort of answer from the filmmakers (without more dedicated fans like me having to explain). I even recall the early days when they announced the Hobbit films would go into production, I thought "Good, at least a chance to PJ to name-drop the eagles and explain a little about these characters who play a MAJOR role in our characters' fates." I liked the eagles' intro in Fellowship because the connection to the moth and Gandalf was clear and it was a cool resource for Gandalf. Overall I didn't think it needed an explanation. And the eagles' role in ROTK was earned because of their previous intro in Fellowship. But their first intro into the saga in AUJ comes at a movie's climax so it's begging to be explained in my eyes.

Sure, maybe Gandalf will acknowledge the eagles in a future film. But for PJ to make the climax of the AUJ the frying pan/fire escape, and then to have the climax resolved by a totally random act, and to not have any of the characters even reference the amazing and random act, seems like a big oversight to me. I've watched the movie with people who haven't read the book or read/seen LOTR, and I feel their pain/confusion at seeing that ending, but I told them that there would most definitely be some sort of acknowledgment in the extended edition.

Am I crazy? I know the eagles aren't actual characters we're following on this quest, but they do some very important things - and it's unrealistic in the movies for the dwarves to have their lives saved and not even ask about them, right? The Hobbit is PJ's golden chance to mention their side of things so their role in the whole six-movie tale is clearer for the audience, right?

Thanks all! It felt good! Can't wait for DoS!


Skaan
Lorien


Oct 22 2013, 3:27pm

Post #2 of 20 (596 views)
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Apparantly, [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf will talk briefly about the eagles in DoS (something about him explaining to the dwarves why the eagles didn't take them closer to the Lonely Mountain).

If i remember right, it was mentioned in one of those panels by one of the dwarf actors


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Oct 22 2013, 3:38pm

Post #3 of 20 (533 views)
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As Skaan says, it will apparently be mentioned in DoS... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but IMO PJ was off the mark in using the Moth gain - yet another reference/tie-in to the previous movies, so that the arrival of the Eagles is not a random event but Gandalf simply using his usual "get out of jail" card again. It would have been nice to have just a little bit of suspense as to how the Company were going to escape from Azog's clutches, for those who hadn't seen LotR or read TH. Once you see the moth you know exactly how it's going to end...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Oct 22 2013, 3:46pm

Post #4 of 20 (469 views)
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I can't deny... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that I've always been bugged by the lack of explanation of the eagles in PJ's films. I mean, we get it. But I've always felt that the casual viewer was like "What the **** is with the eagles?"

They're never given an introduction or explanation, and they undoubtedly come off as an incredibly random deus ex machina to the non-readers.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Oct 22 2013, 3:47pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 22 2013, 3:48pm

Post #5 of 20 (461 views)
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i love [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i love the poetry of the moth (in general, but i also did not like that it was reused), but its use does beg the question.... how fast can those middle-earth moths fly? and surely they must be dodging bats and owls and such along the way.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 22 2013, 3:56pm

Post #6 of 20 (455 views)
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Gawd. Eagles now… [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy

They need no more explanation in The Hobbit than they did in RotK (I'd be more interested in an explanation of how they, and the two Hobbits, were able to approach Mt Doom so close without getting incinerated).


gliido
Bree

Oct 22 2013, 4:07pm

Post #7 of 20 (470 views)
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Prediction: It'll be a joke [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf will talk briefly about the eagles in DoS (something about him explaining to the dwarves why the eagles didn't take them closer to the Lonely Mountain).

If i remember right, it was mentioned in one of those panels by one of the dwarf actors


The line of dialogue--mentioned by Graham McTavish--is "And that is why the eagles will take you no further."

Personally, I don't expect an explanation at all. I have a feeling that line of dialogue is going the punch-line of a joke. I can see the film cutting to a scene mid-conversation and Gandalf saying his line about the eagles, as if we (the audience) *just* missed his explanation.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 22 2013, 4:14pm

Post #8 of 20 (413 views)
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I hope... [In reply to] Can't Post

... we will get Bilbo or one of the Dwarves climbing down Carrock, complaining about why they have to walk again instead of flying further and Gandalf telling them off - and then never hear that whole story again ;)

Although I personally believe that the eagles, also in the books, will always remain a leap of faith to some extend and for some remain close to a plothole.

DoS should still do that little scene though, in AUJ there was not really a moment left in which it would have fitted in.



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Fleuz
Lorien


Oct 22 2013, 4:18pm

Post #9 of 20 (425 views)
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Spoiler... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian Mc Kellan actially confirmed an explanation some Werks ago.
A funny video. Look on yt for it...

No it was McTavish WHO told on an press conference about such a scene.
McKellan accidentially Said Beagles instead of egales. But it was about that very scene.


(This post was edited by Fleuz on Oct 22 2013, 4:22pm)


Snaga
Lorien


Oct 22 2013, 8:09pm

Post #10 of 20 (301 views)
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I'm sure there will be plenty of explanation in the EE, but not on screen [In reply to] Can't Post

If these EE's are anything like the LOTR ones you will probably see all sorts of content about the eagles. They will probably talk about the design of them, the animation, what kind of eagles they modelled them on (I remember someone on these boards complaining "Those aren't eagles!" when the film first came out. Obviously an American like me, who only thinks of bald eagles, forgetting that there are something like 80 different species of them world wide) and some info about what valley in New Zealand they did the aerial shots at.

You might even hear Peter or Fran explain why they went the route of not having the eagles speak, why they excluded the eyrie, and what the whole deal with Gandalf and the butterfly was about.

But nothing on screen I'm afraid, unless it's with the film and running in the background in the voice commentary. The writers just decided to treat them like they did in the LOTR films, a fixture that comes into the film and then leaves. Given the time contraints (screen time) they were operating under they probably had no other choice.

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 22 2013, 10:23pm

Post #11 of 20 (233 views)
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Eagle species [In reply to] Can't Post

The species the Eagles are modelled on is the Golden Eagle, which is native to the UK (the Bald Eagle is an American species).


In Reply To
If these EE's are anything like the LOTR ones you will probably see all sorts of content about the eagles. They will probably talk about the design of them, the animation, what kind of eagles they modelled them on (I remember someone on these boards complaining "Those aren't eagles!" when the film first came out. Obviously an American like me, who only thinks of bald eagles, forgetting that there are something like 80 different species of them world wide) and some info about what valley in New Zealand they did the aerial shots at.

You might even hear Peter or Fran explain why they went the route of not having the eagles speak, why they excluded the eyrie, and what the whole deal with Gandalf and the butterfly was about.

But nothing on screen I'm afraid, unless it's with the film and running in the background in the voice commentary. The writers just decided to treat them like they did in the LOTR films, a fixture that comes into the film and then leaves. Given the time contraints (screen time) they were operating under they probably had no other choice.



MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 23 2013, 2:14am

Post #12 of 20 (187 views)
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i really don't see the big deal in why we need a explanation... [In reply to] Can't Post

the eagles rescued them from danger and flew them to safety! there is no need for a explanation! The eagles didn't know they were on their way to the lonely mountain, and why should they fly them way over there anyway?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 23 2013, 2:17am

Post #13 of 20 (192 views)
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i read that interview, the short scene was cut from AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

and from what i've read PJ didn't insert it back in the AUJ EE.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


jtarkey
Rohan


Oct 23 2013, 4:07am

Post #14 of 20 (174 views)
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The problem to me was... [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that no one in the company seemed to be surprised to be rescued by giant eagles...

This bothered me A LOT.

Even for a fan like me, I was utterly speechless at why no explanation was given. It literally could have been achieved in a single sentence or a very short extra scene. It made the ending seemed rushed to me

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Oct 23 2013, 4:10am

Post #15 of 20 (176 views)
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in my opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

Kili and Bilbo seemed to be very surprised. I don't think we could clearly see the reactions of the others- perhaps they initially didn't know whether they were friend or foe, and ducked to avoid being snatched up and dropped like the wargs and their riders.

Once they figured out that the eagle wasn't going to drop Thorin, and was being quite gentle, and had rescued Dori and Ori, then I honestly doubted they cared what or why there were there-just that they were, and they were carrying them away from a suicidal confrontation.

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 23 2013, 11:16am

Post #16 of 20 (129 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

I also got the impression that the Dwarves (the ones that could be seen properly) and Bilbo were rather surprised at the Eagles and a bit afraid of them.


jtarkey
Rohan


Oct 23 2013, 12:04pm

Post #17 of 20 (121 views)
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Bilbo has never been outside the Shire before this... [In reply to] Can't Post

So when he is miraculously saved by giant eagles, he immediately forgets about it seconds later?

I just find it odd that not a single member of the company was like "Hey Gandalf...wtf just happened there?".

I will reserve final judgement until DOS is released. However, the fact that it is totally brushed off in AUJ just rubs me the wrong way.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

(This post was edited by jtarkey on Oct 23 2013, 12:05pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 23 2013, 12:17pm

Post #18 of 20 (116 views)
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No, I didn't find this particularly odd [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the company obviously had many other things to think about at that time.

None of the characters in LotR questioned the appearance of the Eagles, and it didn't bother me there, either.

The characters in these films came across a lot of things that would no doubt have been strange to them (especially in the case of the Hobbits), but didn't question them, either. Perhaps in a land such as Middle-Earth, things that appear 'weird' to us appear relatively 'normal' to its inhabitants, and are to be expected?


In Reply To
So when he is miraculously saved by giant eagles, he immediately forgets about it seconds later?

I just find it odd that not a single member of the company was like "Hey Gandalf...wtf just happened there?".

I will reserve final judgement until DOS is released. However, the fact that it is totally brushed off in AUJ just rubs me the wrong way.



Shadow&Flame
Registered User

Oct 23 2013, 2:21pm

Post #19 of 20 (99 views)
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Why a 10 second acknowledgment of eagles in AUJ would've been a great decision [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with jtarkey - I thought it was a big oversight to not have any of the characters even ask about the eagles that just swooped in and saved them. What's different about the AUJ rescue scene and the ROTK rescue scene is that the ROTK rescue scene faded out and had a passage of time before Frodo woke up. And then when he woke up, that scene quickly faded out with another passage of time and we were in celebration mode at Aragorn's coronation. Plenty of time passed for the characters to reflect on everything that happened. In AUJ, we literally see the characters get dropped off by the eagles. Once they ensure that Thorin is okay, there's an awkward silence while they watch Gwahir fly away. Then another awkward silence where they look at each other (where a scene most definitely got cut), and then the characters notice the Lonely Mountain, roll credits.

The book dealt with the eagles and characters' questions immediately. I think in PJ's films the omission was a result of late editing and splitting the movies into 3 movies. As a result, they used the tension of whether Thorin was dead as a final cliffhanger, and then ran out of time for simple and realistic reactions to wrap-up the most crucial action scene. So, as a stand-alone movie, AUJ suffered. Hopefully, DoS will solve this in my mind (even if a little late).


Snaga
Lorien


Oct 23 2013, 10:01pm

Post #20 of 20 (77 views)
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Thanks for the info. [In reply to] Can't Post

Golden Eagle. Wonderful creatures.

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir

 
 

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