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Confused With The Rings of Power

Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 17 2013, 9:10am

Post #1 of 10 (213 views)
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Confused With The Rings of Power Can't Post

1. The Elven Rings were not touched by Sauron, so does this mean that if Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf wore them if Sauron found the One Ring he could control them (but I thought it was free from his influence) or perhaps he could just see their thoughts?

2. What gave the rings of power their power? Sauron's power? If he never touched the 3 Elven Rings, how can he wield influence over it?

3. Why was Elrond's Ring the mightiest? What made it mightier?

4. If Sauron was so powerful, why does he even need the ring to subdue the others? If he could even float as some kind of spirit even with a great portion of his power gone, why can't he just put under his spell the kings and elves he wants to subdue...it's not like he needs to follow the rules of the Valar like Gandalf or Saruman at the time?

thanks for the input...

GOM


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2013, 2:11pm

Post #2 of 10 (140 views)
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Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I have always thought that the passage that says that Sauron never touched or 'sullied' them, meant this: Sauron put his strength and will into the one, and thus, it reflected him in a sense of character. The Ring wanted power and domination, because Sauron, it's creator/source of power wanted it. The Elven rings were made by Elves to create beauty and life, the intention was different. If there was an effect on the wearer of the three, I can only imagine that it'd be to be more kind and artistic. It is worth mentioning, that there is a theory that the Seven were the cause of the Dwarves gold-sickness/madness. Keeping in mind that the Seven (and Nine) were of Elf make, Sauron's character and power might have been able to 'repurpose' the rings, or to assert his will over that power the rings had been given by thier Elf smith. So yes, if Sauron had the One, he would have been able to control, to an extent, the bearers of the three. He would have been able to perceive their thoughts and intents clearly, knowing all thier secrets. Would they become slaves? I do not know. Sauron was still a Maiar, but diminished. Perhaps after the first shock, the Elves could rid themselves of their rings, and not become wraiths(if it were possible. We had a fun discussion on this earlier in the RR. Search for elf or wraith, it was only a month or so ago, two months tops). Now Gandalf, as a Maiar might have been able to resist without giving anything away. I think that this might have put him into the direct conflict with Sauron that he feared.

Sauron gave great knowledge of smithcraft to the Elves in Eregion and Hollin, there, using his knowledge, they made the rings. I do not believe that Sauron imbued all of the rings with his power, only his. There was done natural/learned process that gave the rings power, and Sauron as a Maiar, was able to give his that 'something-special' that allowed him to have more power and domination ability. More thoughts on ring-making are available if wanted, I just hate typing in my ipod.

Vilya was called mightiest somewhere, but I believe that Narnya/Nenya was called so elsewhere. On noes a contradiction!!! Yes, it will happen. I'm afraid there is no answer here really, unless one more learned knows!!! Personally, I think that the bearer would determine the power of the Three, as with the one.

Perhaps:

Cirdan with Naryna<Galadriel with Nenya

But

Gandalf(white) with Naryna<? Galadriel with Nenya

I think that also, they had different powers, or the bearers expressed thier powers differently, so a question of which is more powerful, might be akin to whether an A-bomb is more dangerous than a nuclear reactor. One is used for war and cannot be used for peace really. The other can be used for peace in a greater way, but also can serve war in a lesser. No greater or lesser power source, in fact identical, just different expression.

He had been dimished in power by empowering his servants and building Barad-Dr, and other sundry tasks such as escaping a body that drowns on Numenor. We came to a general consensus that the more power an Ainu uses in ME, the more bound they are to physical shape and subjectivity to the laws of Arda.(hence the wounding of Morgoth by Fingolfin's sword having lasting effect) He was nowhere near as powerful as he started, and was perhaps, in doubt as to his power to crush the Free Prople with sheer power, as Morgoth , many orders more powerful, had failed to do. Maybe the Ring could have been seen as a shortcut to power? Control the heads, control the rest? It also enhanced his dimished powers by amplifying his current power, which was a plus. (Note: in one of his Letters, Tolkien explicitly states that in creating the Ring 'Sauron was not dimished(!)'. Rather that he had all of his power, but that power he had put into the Ring existed 'in rapport' with himself.

Sauron- possession of Ring= Sauron
Sauron+possession of Ring= ber-Sauron

Now it may not make Arithmetical sense that possession only adds, but never subtracts, but we must accept it. This may balance the view a little.

Sauron+ existence of the Ring= Sauron
Sauron- existence of the Eing = little Sauron unable to take form in Arda.

The Ring was only a tool, but a vital one as it harbored part if Sauron himself, and once destroyed, so was its power, and it was lost to Sauron forever.

I hope these rambling a have helped someone.......


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 17 2013, 6:36pm

Post #3 of 10 (110 views)
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The Seven [In reply to] Can't Post

The Seven Dwarven Rings were not solely of Elf-make, any more than were the Nine. The Noldor may have assisted Sauron in the creation of the Dwarven Rings of Power, but the Dark Lord definitely had a hand in their creation. The Three Elven Rings were the only Rings of Power that were not made with Sauron's help. They did make use of his lore, which is why they are still subject to the Master Ring.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2013, 7:07pm

Post #4 of 10 (110 views)
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Oh, yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought that I had implied all of that, apparently I wasn't too clear. Yes, Sauron had the original knowledge of the craft, and aided in the creation of all the rings, save the Three. He also, COULD have added something to the rings while in creation, to serve his purpose-- an interesting thought, but unnecessary IMHO, as the Master Ring would still dominate as it did with the Three.

He surely aided the Elves, but my point was that they were first intended to be gifts to the races mentioned, given out by the Elves. We still don't know what exactly they DID though. Another topic for a long discussion.

Yes, the Three were still subject to the One. The One was a Master Key, if you follow the analogy. It doesn't matter when the Key is made, as it still opens the locks, no matter how old or different.


Bladerunner
Rohan


Oct 17 2013, 11:31pm

Post #5 of 10 (114 views)
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Here's my two cents.... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I see the rings similar to the palantiri in that the method of their manufacture makes them connected in some form or fashion, so even though Annatar did not help forge the three rings, he still understood the means and method of their making (i.e. - he had intellectual rights to the process, and new the "code" used to program them),

2. I think Sauron's ring contained part of his life force, but it was a risk he took to enable him to influence others remotely.
Knowing the process for making the rings he would know how to tune his master ring so that the others resonated to it accordingly.

3. I think Elrond's was the mightiest because during its making, Celebrimbor probably let it "cook" a little longer.
("Cook" is not meant as a joke, but only as a metaphor for the ring-making process).

4. I think Sauron needs the ring, because he is not powerful enough to bend all the free peoples to his will without being duplicitous.
He is the Deceiver after all and needs to resort to trickery to do so.
The rings are a trap to first entice and then ensnare the wearer.



(This post was edited by Bladerunner on Oct 17 2013, 11:39pm)


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 18 2013, 7:37am

Post #6 of 10 (60 views)
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Thanks for all the input..and particularly made sense... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Seven Dwarven Rings were not solely of Elf-make, any more than were the Nine. The Noldor may have assisted Sauron in the creation of the Dwarven Rings of Power, but the Dark Lord definitely had a hand in their creation. The Three Elven Rings were the only Rings of Power that were not made with Sauron's help. They did make use of his lore, which is why they are still subject to the Master Ring.

Lore? You mean as not just simple knowledge but the magical or whatever enchanted element was involved in it. Hence, since he touched and had a hand in the creation of the other rings he was able to put more enchantment and spells into it, whereas the Elven rings his knowledge of lore making was the only one but without his direct involvement so he can just kind of "tap" into it? However, so is it safe to assume that his influence over the 3 other rings than he had less involvement with is a bit less than the other rings that were created with his direct input? But he can still kind of tap into it as the bearers decided not to wear it when he still had the One Ring? So destroying any of the rings - other than the one ring - would not really have any effect on Sauron, would it?

And I get the impression that Elven rings were more powerful than the other rings, no? If that is the case, the Elves are able learn lore from Mairs and make ring of powers that could be more powerful than some of the lesser rings than Sauron had made in creation even without his direct involvement but just using his lore? If my logic is right, could Galadriel have learned lore from Melian and able to replicate her power even she herself is not a Mair? Maybe I'm confused.

A bit out of topic, the Valar's attitude puzzles me. If they were still concerned about ME, why not just deal with Sauron directly and go through the theatrics of sending Maiars with limits (Istari) in their dealings with ME? Or this just belongs to the category of "god moves in mysterious ways." type of things.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 18 2013, 2:00pm

Post #7 of 10 (43 views)
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Think of Sauron as a programmer [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron taught "programming" to the Elves in such a way that, even when Celembrimbor "programmed" the Elven Rings, the Dark Lord still had a "back door" that gave him access to them. Even though they were not tainted by him, he was aware of the thoughts and plans of their bearers and could attempt to influence them and control the works of the Rings. Sauron could presumably bring an end to the eternal Spring of Lothlorien or the endless Autumn of Rivendell (or do I have those reversed?).

The Valar still remember that the last time they intervened directly in the events of Middle-earth, West Beleriand was destroyed and sunk into the sea. That is why the Istari were sent in the Third Age as their proxies and why the Wizards were given the forms of Mortal Men and limits were imposed on their powers.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 18 2013, 2:07pm

Post #8 of 10 (38 views)
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Programming...lol... [In reply to] Can't Post

So Sauron had a virus...lol...

speaking of that, I wonder if someone has thought a One Ring virus...that would ensare:

The Telephone "Rings."

Blackberry
Apple
Android

lol


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2013, 2:07pm

Post #9 of 10 (37 views)
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Nice Analogy!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree whole-heartedly!!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2013, 2:11pm

Post #10 of 10 (72 views)
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How creepy would this be..... [In reply to] Can't Post

All of a sudden you phone turns on and Sauron's voice speaks to you!!! Scary!!

 
 

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