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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
AUJ Witch King/Necromancer encounter all a sham? (Mild Spoilers)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 6:52pm

Post #26 of 32 (143 views)
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Aww. Thank you much. On Sauron's revelation. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

that is an interesting one. It is especially intruging since it really doesn't fit either scenario. Sauron wouldn't need to show himself as a lure for the Wise after the revelation of The Witch-King. Radagast encountering one of "The Nine Forgotten Riders," as treebeard called them, would be more than sufficient cause for him to say something to someone, and would be grounds aplenty for Gandalf to investigate.

It also wouldn't make sense for a secretive Sauron to reveal himself. HOWEVER, there is the possibility of error in wrath. Saruman made several mistakes in haste and in anger. Sauron might do the same. He was not infallible. In his ire at Saruman he initially missed the fact that he was in contact with Peregrin, realized, adjusted, and still assumed that Pippin was a captive of Saruman forced to look into the Pallantir, at least at first. It is possible that Sauron's reveal was merely a mistake of rage. His plan to deal with Radagast quickly and quietly foiled by the Wizard being more pespicacious and battle ready than he had hoped. He might have revealed himself in fury at the failure. Perhaps he even meant to startle the quick thinking Radagast into dropping his only piece of tangible evidence. The Morgul blade was a more convincing exhibit than talk of having seen a scary shadow creature. And, Sauron did send giant bats to try to seize Radagast. Sometimes a villains best laid attempts just don't work out. All the Nine together tried to take Gandalf at night, in the histories. Turns out he was more than they could handle. lol

In Reply To
Analysis AO! Quite jealous of your knowledge.

Another thing I don't get is why would Sauron reveal himself (or whatever that was) to Radagast? It's not the wraith that scares the hell out of Radagast. It's a vague shadow far away calling his name. And it's this shadow that causes him to cross the misty mountains in such fury to speak to Gandalf. Had Sauron not shown himself, Raddy might not have reacted the same way. A wraith didn't seem like much of a threat to him given he easily disarmed it.

Surely Sauron would know that Radagast would escape and go seek help. If whatever it is that beats Gandalf so bad that he needs to be carried by Galadriel, is waiting for Gandalf in DOS then why didn't it also confront Radagast? It can't be that this thing, be it a wraith or all nine or even Sauron wasn't prepared to face Radagast when it does a good job of hurting Gandalf within a matter of a couple of weeks (or several days?)? I don't think Radagast escaped on his own - he was let go.

See this is why the DG subplot was underwhelming in AUJ. There was no conclusion to it - a high fells scene at the end of the film at the expense of one of the many stupid scenes in the film would have worked as a great transition into DOS, providing the audience with a mystery to think over. The White Council scene left too many loose ends for the movie to simply close on.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 6:59pm

Post #27 of 32 (142 views)
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Again, my thoughts on the spiders. Ambush, more so than lure... or possibly both. [In reply to] Can't Post

"More likely is this: Radagast lives in Mirkwood. Sauron has remained entirely secret for as long as he can, but his increasing power, presence, and population of regional servants is starting to have an effect on the surrounding area. Radagast would be the first to notice this, as he does. Sauron attempts to do something about Radagast before Radagast starts puzzling things together (as he does) and goes running his mouth to other, even more dangerous and serious foes (which he will/shall do).

I wouldn't be surprised if Rhosgobel has some charms in place for purely supernatural foes, and I doubt Sauron would want to unleash the likes of Wraiths too soon. He sends a hit team to Radagast's home. I.E. the obvious set up in An Unexpected. Sauron assumes Radagast to be a sentimental fool. Sebastian was meant to be a bait and distraction. In Sauron's view, Radagast, seen as a damn dummy, will focus his powers on healing the cursed and sickened animals, and while he is caught up in that, a hundred pounds of spider can drop on him, fill him with venom, wrap him up and drag him back to Dol Guldur on Sauron's terms. Radagast proves a little more nimble and capable at his craft than is hoped for by his enemies. He heals his woodland friend, and springs up, ready for action. The spiders are not interested in combat with an Istari on fair terms and go on their way. We saw what Gandalf did in the goblin tunnels. Radagast probably isn't as poweful as his KinSpirit, HOWEVER, there is still great power in him. The Spiders had not even entirely compromised the house, which means he would have been able to deal with some of them piecemeal, AND, it is his home, so aside from his own abilities, there might be other protections that he would be able to activate. The Spiders came for a quick capture or "assasination", not for a serious and dangerous fight. Instead of calling it a close one, the seemingly but not actually all that absent minded Radagast checks into things further."

I will admit that it could POSSIBLY have been a two pronged plan. Let the spiders take Radagast if they can, if they cannot, hope he follows to Dol Guldur where he can be better dealt with. Yet, to actually desire the entire Council of his foes to come barging in on his not yet up and running, not fully operational operation? I doubt it highly.


In Reply To
What I really like about your line of thinking, is that it explains why the spiders that attacked Rhosgobel just went away like that. That never made much sense to me. They arrive, climb onto his house, scare him, and then just leave. The healing of the hedgehog surely has nothing to do with them backing off...

The idea that they were sent to get Radagast to investigate Dol Guldur would make a lot of sense of that scene!

The question remains, why Sauron would be so "foolish" to attract attention. I don't know how exactly it's going to play out, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sauron indeed wants Radagast to "escape", tell Gandalf about Dol Guldur and ultimately get the White Council to show up. He wants to declare himself, he wants to face down his enemies, he's been planning ahead, they haven't, it is now that he has an advantage. He knows a confrontation is going to come up anyway at some point, but now he would determine exactly when and where. If possible, he needs to get them to show up while they still have no idea about the forces he has ready to strike. He might indeed want the White Council to show up rather sooner than later. His army is probably ready, why wait any longer?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 7:03pm

Post #28 of 32 (139 views)
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Agree to agree ENTIRELY! lol. Accept maybe about the spiders. I do think they were sent. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
a) I would not say the whole thing was "staged" because Sauron originally wanted to attack the North where the elves are located (says in Appendix A of the ROTK book):

Quote
"Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?"


b) I believe Gandalf (in the trailer and TV Spot) is merely referring to the fact that for 400 years they've been living in a "watchful peace" and, because they think everything is peaceful, they failed to notice that something had entered the fortress and evil has been slowly developing there.

c) In the books the Nazgul rely on fear, and do not use a blade until the last minute unless they really have to, but the main aim of the blade is to make the victim fall under their power, rather than to actually kill.
(This is explained by Gandalf to Frodo in the Many Meetings chapter in the FOTK book):

Quote
'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound.'

That would mean that for every victim, they would need another one so it would not matter about dropping the blade because they'd create another.

d) Concerning Radagast, I don't think the Necromancer was "luring" him in there, and that the reason for Radagast being in there was coincidental as he was merely wanting to find out why the spiders had attacked his house (and I believe that the spiders decided to attack his home on their own terms and because the wizard uttered a spell to bring the hedgehog to life, they backed off again).
The Necromancer does say "Radagast" when he appears, but (like in the Fellowship of the Ring when he says, "Aragorn... Elessar...") he is able to sense who people are - the filmmakers perhaps decided to add that into the film for audiences who have not yet seen the Lord of the Rings (or to remind those who have seen the trilogy this is what he can do).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 12 2013, 7:24pm

Post #29 of 32 (122 views)
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Maybe they were sent. I'm not sure.// [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 7:35pm

Post #30 of 32 (137 views)
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*genuflects* [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, good Bomby. Glad to have participated in the good discussion. Smile

In Reply To
At times the Game of MiddleEarthChess
is what is being played here.

This allegory was used by Gandalf at times
in MovieLOTR..."The Board izz set,
The pieces are... are Moving.."

If you drew yourself up to LOOK down
on MiddleEarth as a Map?

Sauron & Saruman were the ONEs playing everyone
as pawns, Knights, & Queens, gambling that THEIR Plans,
their Strategies work.
Many moves ahead of their opponents?

Most of your level of Thinking (A598&AO)seems from THAT perspective..

That's where you TOOK Bomby...
to think from a Map perspective?

Maybe that is why this forum needs TIME to digest...
Thang you Berry Buch, for taking anyone reading this
to..The Highest perspective.

Maybe a "WorldView" we need to observe from...?
at times.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 14 2013, 4:26pm

Post #31 of 32 (95 views)
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There are indications, but not for this reason... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Zombies should be an indication that this is not going to follow canon at all.



I agree that the DG sub-plot will probably not follow the tiny bit of material that Tolkien actually wrote about it, but there isn't any reason to believe that zombies will be present. I think all of the talk about "summoning the dead" was referring to the Nazgul.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 14 2013, 4:31pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2013, 2:55pm

Post #32 of 32 (76 views)
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I think that they are trying to get up a little publicity.... [In reply to] Can't Post

They get us all excited and heated over a misrepresentation, and what do we do?

AngelicBUY CINEMA TICKETS!! Angelic

I agree with you that it is probably all to do with the Nazgul, and a promotion agent's cheap trick. They try to cash in on the zombie craze.TongueMadShockedWink

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