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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The thing that bothers me most about PJ's approach
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frodolives
Lorien

Oct 9 2013, 2:32pm

Post #51 of 65 (192 views)
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I agree about the dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

They do come off as idiotic in the book. They could have had the scene be only with Bilbo and Gandalf, with the dwarves asleep?? Probably not. I think they could have left it as is and kept the ventriloquism instead of the parasites. My biggest issue is that Bilbo saves the day, when IMHO it is too early in his character development for that to happen. We need to see him as vulnerable and 'in over his head.' That way, when he kills the spiders in Mirkwood, its a real turning point for him.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 2:43pm

Post #52 of 65 (187 views)
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Sounds about right. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I for one think they did a nice job with it... never was able to picture that scene in a rather LotR-ized TH. But they somehow made it work for the biggest part... though if it was not such a classical moment it actually is similar to the Bombadil episode - nothing much happening that could not be told in another way and theoretically easy to just scratch. But of course that would only have been possible if they would have had to put the whole story in only one movie (same goes for the Giants).



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Oct 9 2013, 2:52pm

Post #53 of 65 (178 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether the Wink is being used playfully, or sarcastically.


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 9 2013, 4:08pm

Post #54 of 65 (166 views)
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why even try to make predictions about such things? [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing is that I believe your prediction is quite far off the mark. But I wonder: whats the point in making assumptions about future events in the films? Do you want to prepare yourself for disappointment? Is there anything in the films so far to indicate that the theme about possessiveness will be removed from the plot? Quite to the contrary I think the scenes weve seen with Bard in the trailer points to the opposite.


RosieLass
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 4:10pm

Post #55 of 65 (174 views)
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As I mentioned above... [In reply to] Can't Post

It might have been a more effective scene if it had been one of the dwarves rather than Bilbo who was being threatened with death?

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


frodolives
Lorien

Oct 9 2013, 4:14pm

Post #56 of 65 (167 views)
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Err... [In reply to] Can't Post

... a significant number of the posts on this forum involve prognostication of some form and have since 1999 or 1998.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 4:18pm

Post #57 of 65 (161 views)
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I do not think so. [In reply to] Can't Post

They kind of needed Bilbo to be rather lost... otherwise Thorin's statement in the Misty Mountains does not make much sense or would only be related to him almost falling down the mountain-path.

I think they kind of wanted it to be Bilbo's fault. Which does make sense at this point of the story imho.

I think the biggest problem of the scene is that it will always remain extremely episodic. They tried to give it more relevance with the Gandalf/Thorin conversation on how strange it is that trolly would be this far South plus the remarks regarding Blibo's value to the quest. But otherwise it is a scene someone not caring about the book at all would probably relatively easily cut out.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 9 2013, 4:20pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2013, 4:22pm

Post #58 of 65 (164 views)
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Changes and excuses... [In reply to] Can't Post

You have summed up perfectly how I also feel about the trolls scene.

I don't see how one can say the scene in the book wasn't suitable for a LotR-ized version of The Hobbit (presumably because it is deemed too whimsical?) when the movie version was played for laughs, and removed any trace of the tension found in the book....because, hey, it's a children's story, right? Wink

I thought the scene worked reasonably well up to the capture of the Dwarves , though thi could have done without the snot and the floater. If we are not to have the Dwarves caught one by one, then there's no need for the sacks, so I would have them tied up randomly, hands and feet bound, or maybe even some tied to the tree trunks nearby. The spit could be kept in the scene, with one of the trolls wanting to tie a couple of Dwarves onto it for roasting, but then Bilbo's dialogue about the best way of cooking the Dwarves prevents this. I would then have Gandalf ( unseen by the viewers) take over with the ventriloquism as in the book. We certainly don't have to be spoonfed with the idea that someone needs to play for time till Dawn. Why can it not come as a surprise and a relief that the company are saved? And there is no reason why Gandalf cannot be the one to save them this early in the story, when Bilbo is still finding his feet... If Gandalf being a Deus ex machina is such a problem, why not cut him rescuing them in Goblin Town or summoning the Eagles, too??!! Angelic

.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 4:32pm

Post #59 of 65 (154 views)
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I said something similar so I will respond. [In reply to] Can't Post

I found that the scene might not work because I was not sure whether talking trolls would fit in the whole picture and because I was not sure whether it would work out to have the dwarves almost get fried when they are strong fighters in other instances. But as I said, it did work out for me in the end and blended quite well together with the rest.

And I do not agree at all about the tension found in the book lost in the movie, so the statement doesn't work for me to begin with Wink



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 4:44pm

Post #60 of 65 (153 views)
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This was also a motivation for Goblin Town changes [In reply to] Can't Post

A major reason for the whole "Goblin Town" fight was to avoid Gandalf being the Deus Ex Machina to the degree that he is in the book. In the book, the GG has the Dwarves at his mercy, he gives the order to kill them when he sees Orcrist (as in the movie), but then poof, he's dead, killed by Gandalf a moment later, and the Dwarves yet again escape without a fight. So in the movie they toned down Gandalf's role-- just provide the initial spark to get them up and fighting.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Brandybuckled
Lorien


Oct 9 2013, 5:17pm

Post #61 of 65 (141 views)
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Dwarf personality characteristics -- Surrender? [In reply to] Can't Post

How I would have done it (more or less):

You could have kept everything nearly the same up to Bilbo being held up and threatened with dismemberment (maybe throw in a talking purse for you-know-who if you like), except one troll uprooting a tree.

Bilbo is threatened.

Dwarves all react with dismay and rush at the two trolls to save Bilbo.

As they converge, the troll with the tree takes them all out in a swing or two, as they are bashed against the forest and rocks into unconsciousness.

There. All the dwarves are captured just the same, but not because they are morons who just surrender en masse.

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 9 2013, 5:40pm

Post #62 of 65 (132 views)
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Right..... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and when the trolls see the dwarves rushing forward and tear Bilbo apart, who would you bring in as the new burglar? The Talking Purse? (I suppose at least he'd have somewhere to put the loot!)


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Oct 9 2013, 5:43pm

Post #63 of 65 (127 views)
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No need. [In reply to] Can't Post

No time to rip Bilbo up (and why would they need to anymore) because they are too busy putting dazed dwarves into sacks.Smile

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 9 2013, 7:59pm

Post #64 of 65 (107 views)
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well, yes, but still [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of these predictions or speculations come with either some sort of these reasoning why he/she makes that particular prediction, or musings on possible outcomes and fears. I didnt see anything of that in your post. Also it didnt seem particularly relevant to your original post.
Thats also part of the reason why I questioned its purpose.

Of course, if there was a particular reason why you believe this prediction is good, Im interested to hear it.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Oct 11 2013, 11:28pm

Post #65 of 65 (70 views)
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I watch AUJ too much. It's like I'm addicted to it. I'd love to believe it's because it's a lush, visually dazzling, well acted and fully loaded romp through Middle Earth, and perhaps the film I had been waiting for since I was a kid. But it's not, exactl [In reply to] Can't Post

with the exception of the too much, my feelings exactly. Regular doses of the first 50 minutes have been injected into my nervous system!!!

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

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