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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: My Dear Frodo
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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 23 2013, 6:29pm

Post #26 of 44 (234 views)
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Knocking at the door [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Bilbo: "Frodo! The door! Sticklebacks! Where is that boy? Frodo!"


^ I mean that part, during Bilbo's opening narration in The Fellowship of the Ring. I've speculated in the past that it might end up in The Hobbit somewhere. I'd quite like it if it did end up being one of the Dwarves helping Bilbo get ready to leave. It's never going to happen, mind.

Wink



cats16
Valinor


Sep 23 2013, 6:48pm

Post #27 of 44 (218 views)
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2/2 on being late. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Along with the Prologue about Dale, Erebor, and Thorin, this chapter is not in the book. It serves as a second/continuing introduction to the movie before we reach the book start, with the meeting of young Bilbo and Gandalf.

1) Did you like this introduction, why or why not?

I think, structurally, the scene "has some explaining to do" as of now. I love the scene on its own, don't get me wrong. But it does feel unnecessary in a way. I don't doubt that the framing device here will be justified by the end, but it's a little murky to think about before we see the end. It's hard for me to think about how the general audience sees this, being far from one myself. But, like usual, I'm quite optimistic.

Edit: Hmm I sound too negative here and below. I really did like this scene. I'm eagerly waiting to see how things come together.

2) How did you feel about the inclusion of Frodo in this scene?
Probably the source of my answer to #1. It's one of those situations where you know what they're doing, but curious how exactly they're planning to ties things up in the end. Like I said though, I love the scene on its own. We'll see how Frodo's inclusion works after the trilogy is complete.
3) What purpose do you feel it serves, why do you think the filmmakers chose to include this scene?
I do think it was placed to aid in connecting the trilogies, as well as give us--well not us here--a reminder about who Bilbo, and Frodo, are in the story. If you have ever seen LOTR, or parts of it, you may be able to connect the trilogies in your head. Now it all comes together, seeing the grand scheme of things concerning the latter portion of the Third Age (concerning select characters, of course Tongue)
4) Do you feel it is a problem for audience members not familiar with Middle Earth to be shown Bilbo survived?
For me, no. In a way, I see it to be more interesting to know that he lives in the end. Now, it's a matter of 1. how does he survive, and at what cost to everyone else on the adventure, and 2. how will he, as a character, change because of this experience.

The Prologue gave us an introduction to what Dwarves are like, and in what sorts of places and how they live. This scene does not do so for Hobbits to nearly the extent FotR (even the TE) did.

5) Did you feel a bit more on Hobbits was needed? Why or why not?
No I don't. If you've seen FOTR, you're fine on hobbits. If not, Bilbo is your first glimpse into this race. Again though, I'm not--none of us here are, exactly--part of the general audience, so, at least for me, it's hard to say whether or not more exposition on hobbits was necessary. But it's an interesting point to bring up, arithmancer.

The prologue ended with Thorin hammering at an anvil and a fade to black. This scene opens on an exterior scene of the Shire in daylight, with a view of the Hill and the Water. All we hear are birds chirping. There is no music

7) Is this an effective way to open the scene? Why or why not?
Love it. A fantastic way to calm things down after the prologue. It's so beautifully idyllic, and showing the contrast between Thorin's struggles with Erebor and Hobbiton is a great choice. I took a deep breath once I saw all of that green. I knew, for us fans, that we were coming back home to the Shire, after 10 long years.

In this scene we see Hobbiton and of Bag End, familiar sights for LotR film fans.

8) How did they look to you? Feel free to comment on what you liked or disliked about how Hobbiton and Bag End appeared.
I know some people don't particularly like the look of Hobbiton in AUJ. But...I really do. Looking at the screencaps, I think the shots of Frodo on the steps are incredible. I love the contrast between the shadowy fields in the distance--shadowy due to clouds overhead--and the bright hobbit holes glowing in the sunlight. Bag End felt as warm and cozy as ever. Nothing negative to say about it, other than I never think we're there long enough. Wink

In this scene we see two characters very familiar to LotR film fans, Bilbo and Frodo.

9) How did they look to you? Feel free to comment on what you liked or disliked about seeing these characters, their interactions, and their appearance. Yes, the de-aging is questionable in shots. And the wig seems off. But neither takes me out of the film. I am more than happy to see these minor issues, rather than not seeing Old Bibo at all. PJ did what he could, having MF close the gap between the two Bilbo actors by walking around--giving us the impression that that was Holm. I didn't have a problem with their interactions either.


The dialogue makes clear that we are seeing a scene from earlier in the day of the Long Expected Party in FotR.

12) Why do you think the filmmakers chose this day for this scene?
It's a very important day for both characters. In FOTR, this day has a lot of purpose within the story concerning Bilbo and the Ring. Now, we're getting more of the story, with some much-needed quiet moments between the Bagginses.
13) Do you like this choice?
I do like it.

The scene ends after Frodo leaves, with Bilbo sitting outside on the bench and smoking his pipe. He is describing himself in the days before his adventure - always on time, entirely respectable, nothing unexpected ever happened. The title “An Unexpected Journey” appears over Bilbo's smoke ring.

15) What did you think of this way of ending the scene?
Love love love this moment. I dug into my seat when this happened last December, knowing we would be in for a heck of a journey. To me this scene ends in a very helpful way for non-fans. We've established the far-away lands of Erebor, where the ultimate struggle lies. Now, we have established Bilbo and Frodo''s places in the modern day. And, finally, we're jumping through a porthole--the smoke ring, specifically--into the past. The "unexpected" part is about to happen.

Thanks, arithmancer! Great things to consider. Lots of great thoughts above me already in the thread, so I didn't have much explaining to do. Everyone else has said it wonderfully.
Smile



(This post was edited by cats16 on Sep 23 2013, 6:50pm)


Faleel
Rohan

Sep 23 2013, 6:48pm

Post #28 of 44 (224 views)
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I... [In reply to] Can't Post

Always thought it was Gandalf, just some wacky flashbackforwardback thing.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 23 2013, 7:30pm

Post #29 of 44 (208 views)
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Holm voiceover [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean in the previous scene? Or, did you also like the parts of the voiceover that were in this week's scene?

If the latter, I would be curious as to what you think should have been shown at those moments. Or are you saying you'd prefer to go straight to Young Bilbo after the Prologue about the Dwarves?

The wig is widely hated! I must lack fashion-sense, I never even noticed something was off with Bilbo's hair.Wink


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 23 2013, 7:37pm

Post #30 of 44 (203 views)
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Holm and Freeman [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The sketch of himself (done by Ori, I believe), really shows how much alike Martin Freeman and Ian Holm look, and couldn't picture nay other actor to portray younger Bilbo.


I can't find it now online, but I recall reading online something by the real-life artist who drew that picture. What he said in that bit I cannot find, is that when he drew Bilbo, he deliberately modelled it off both actors. Which I thought was really clever We know it is a picture of Freeman, but there are also subtle bits of Holm in there. So it may be less their amazing similarity and more that this has been suggested to us.

And Freeman's performance, also, was at times informed by Holm's, which also comtributes to that sense of similarity.

Though I agree, I would not now want to see anyone else in the role. I'm getting ahead of myself but I loved Freeman as Bilbo!


cats16
Valinor


Sep 23 2013, 7:38pm

Post #31 of 44 (203 views)
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About the wig... [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think anything of it until coming here again after seeing the film. Then it was brought to my attention.

In my mind Bilbo just needs a shower. Cool


Noria
Rohan

Sep 23 2013, 8:50pm

Post #32 of 44 (191 views)
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Thanks again arithmancer. [In reply to] Can't Post

Very kind words.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 23 2013, 11:50pm

Post #33 of 44 (179 views)
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Pinecones? [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the happy disorder of Bag End in Bilbo's time, and I keep seeing all those pinecones all about (reminders of walks?) because we do the same thing.

There were pinecones strewn about in Bag End? So much for my observational skills, I will need to watch this again!

AND I absolutely love Frodo nailing up the sign.

Me too! I watched the start of FotR as part of preparing for this discussion and it was fun to see the same sign Frodo had put up, still on the gate when Gandalf showed up.


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 24 2013, 12:31am

Post #34 of 44 (173 views)
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Pine cones! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[I love the happy disorder of Bag End in Bilbo's time, and I keep seeing all those pinecones all about (reminders of walks?) because we do the same thing. ]

There were pinecones strewn about in Bag End? So much for my observational skills, I will need to watch this again!

If you look on the ledges, built into the walls, about head high to Bilbo (or so) there are pine cones sort of randomly placed around. They aren't next to the fire or anything, so it seems like they must be keepsakes. It makes me think of the parts where Gandalf mentions Bilbo always going off into the Woods...I feel like they must be souvenirs of memorable walks.
[AND I absolutely love Frodo nailing up the sign.]

Me too! I watched the start of FotR as part of preparing for this discussion and it was fun to see the same sign Frodo had put up, still on the gate when Gandalf showed up. That is great...!!!!!!! Smile Makes me smile every time!!!!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 24 2013, 1:04am

Post #35 of 44 (177 views)
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I always assumed [In reply to] Can't Post

that it was the Sackvillle-Bagginses and/or other relatives, and that's what caused Bilbo's comment to Gandalf later that he has had "confounded relations hanging on the bell all day". And he's still dodging them at the Party later.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Faleel
Rohan

Sep 24 2013, 1:47am

Post #36 of 44 (167 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post

why would they come by only a few minutes later? "Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins! I know your in there!" "Their after the house!, they have never forgivin be for livin thidl ong"


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Sep 24 2013, 2:03am

Post #37 of 44 (154 views)
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Late again! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know a lot of people did not like the prologue of AUJ but I honestly enjoy it. The way I see it, the more of Bag End, the more of the Shire music, the more of canon references (Lobelia and the spoons, the chest that smells of troll), the more of Ian Holm's Bilbo, the better. (And to think that, several years ago, when I first discovered Tolkien, I had no appreciation for Bilbo. How times change.)

I like the fact that Frodo is in this scene. We know he lived with Bilbo for many years and that they are very close, but we don't get to see too much of them interacting in LOTR, either in the book or in the movie. Here we see them in their natural setting, in the Shire. Frodo smiling as he sees Bilbo's working on his book again, going to get the mail for him, Bilbo not being able to tell Frodo that he's leaving... just d'awwww. And sniffle a bit. But awwww.

The scene, as far as I see it, serves to firmly link the movies. This is Bilbo's story, which leads to Frodo's story - so why not show that with showing how Bilbo and Frodo relate? Plus, I just love the tidbits of it being on the day of the Party (my less geeky sister, who is still plodding through The Hobbit, absolutely loved the little details like it being that day, Frodo putting up the sign on the gate, and running off to go surprise Gandalf). I also understand about Bilbo getting up at the crack of dawn - or earlier, rather, but I don't think it was all night exactly - to work on his book. I've had ideas like that; they just won't leave me alone until I put them down on paper. Either that, or I'm so afraid I'll forget them that I get up to write them down. And writing so long and getting so absorbed until you forget what time it is... yep, been there, done that. Although I haven't lost track of what day it is. Not yet...

Knowing ahead of time that Bilbo survives? Nope, not a problem. Movie-goers tend to expect the hero will survive, anyway. Almost everyone lived in LOTR, too, didn't they? So this is why *SPOILERS* I imagine TABA will be a huge shock to those who haven't read the books or have heard about what's coming. They will be struck speechless. They will not know what to think or say. It'll be contrary to all their expectations and it'll hit them the hardest. Hey... I know it's going to hit me hard. I'm already in denial land, so who knows what will happen when I actually see it? Tears are a given...

I have no doubt we will see more Hobbits in the extended. Can't wait to see the market and Bilbo's lovely blue coat!

I really like the fade from Thorin at the anvil to beautiful Bag End with its flowers, trees, and greenery. It contrasts the Hobbits and the Dwarves in a way words can't quite capture. It also contrasts Bilbo and Thorin - Thorin, who has been through so much, who is determined and bitter, and Bilbo, coming from his 'soft' agrarian society and who no one would expect to be a hero. It's a mood shift, a radical one, yes, but it works. "...this is where I come in. For quite by chance, and by the will of a wizard, fate decided that I should play a part in this tale..." Bilbo comes into the story, and he brings hope with him. When you hear that, you know that there is at least a smidgen of hope for the Dwarves of Erebor. The Shire music nails it in. It's hard to be completely sad when the Shire music is playing.

How did Bag End look to me? I want to live in it!!! Laugh It looks already like something I might conceivably be living in - books and papers and maps strewn everywhere, the shelves and tables full of organized chaos... The flowers outside the door, the candles, the diminutive size... it's perfect for me! Sigh... I have it in LEGO form. I guess I'll have to be content with that. Wink

Pretty sure that's not Fili's sword in the chest. Fili's doesn't come to a curved point like that, if I'm remembering the one Frodo picks up correctly. It looks more like an orc sword to me - pointy, slightly curved, not a saber but doesn't look like the word of men, either. Fili's is much straighter and geometrical. I'd know it anywhere. Besides, there's two of them - would Bilbo just swipe one? Nah, if he took one of Fili's swords, you know he'd treasure it and honor it. It wouldn't be shoved away in a chest. He'd have it on a wall or something. Aren't there some crossed swords and a helmet or something on the wall behind him at some point - mathoms, I suppose?

Again, I think the need to tie Bilbo and Frodo's story together is one that had to be addressed, and I like the way this scene shows a snippet of their family life together. Plus, seeing Frodo again was a treat, regardless of whatever quibbles I may or may not have about the acting or appearances. (I really have no complaints there. I'm rather forgiving.) As one my cousins said at this point during the movie (I felt the need to drag all my friends and as many relatives with me to the theater - no regrets Laugh), "It brings tears to my eyes, seeing Frodo again." As for their conversation - for two people who had never read the book but had seen the LOTR movies (my cousin and my sister), they understood it quite well and even thought it explained things better. So go figure.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 24 2013, 2:14am

Post #38 of 44 (164 views)
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First off, I imagine they're the sort that don't take "no" for an answer, so I wouldn't put it past them to try multiple times. But also, I don't think they were the only relatives in town who might be trying to get in to congratulate him, socialize or pick up some gossip. After all, Bilbo's Party was the talk of the Shire for weeks and he probably had an endless stream of people coming to his door, whether on Party business or not. Why else would he have resorted to putting up a sign?

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Queen of Erebor
Lorien


Sep 24 2013, 2:45am

Post #39 of 44 (171 views)
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Better late than never... [In reply to] Can't Post

Along with the Prologue about Dale, Erebor, and Thorin, this chapter is not in the book. It serves as a second/continuing introduction to the movie before we reach the book start, with the meeting of young Bilbo and Gandalf.

1) Did you like this introduction, why or why not?

I like the fact that they included the first line of the book, and then they go on to describe as to what kind of hole, because when you first hear the line: In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit... you might think it's the kind of hole that moles like to live in.

2) How did you feel about the inclusion of Frodo in this scene? It's a good way to show the audience who will be Bilbo's successor, and I wasn't expecting to find out that it was actually Frodo that put that sign on the front gate (at first, I thought it was Bilbo).

3) What purpose do you feel it serves, why do you think the filmmakers chose to include this scene? Perhaps to show the audience the interaction between Bilbo and Frodo, and what their life was like before coming across a certain ring that will end up changing their lives forever.

4) Do you feel it is a problem for audience members not familiar with Middle Earth to be shown Bilbo survived? I don't see why not, since if they're curious as to how and why they can always read the books or watch the previous movies.

The Prologue gave us an introduction to what Dwarves are like, and in what sorts of places and how they live. This scene does not do so for Hobbits to nearly the extent FotR (even the TE) did.

5) Did you feel a bit more on Hobbits was needed? Why or why not? Not really, since you don't want to give too much away, just give those viewers a glimpse into what Hobbits value and show them what Bilbo is leaving behind when he decides to go on an adventure of a lifetime.

Both this scene and the prologue are clearly scenes of Old Bilbo working on his book about his adventures. He starts writing the prologue at night. (Candle, night outside). The scene we are discussing is set during daytime.

6) Do you think Bilbo has been up all night writing? Or do you think these scenes are further apart? Possibly. Maybe he didn't want to leave it until morning in case he might forget an important detail.

The prologue ended with Thorin hammering at an anvil and a fade to black. This scene opens on an exterior scene of the Shire in daylight, with a view of the Hill and the Water. All we hear are birds chirping. There is no music

7) Is this an effective way to open the scene? Why or why not? I think it is, since we get to see what kind of a place Bag End is, and what Bilbo was like before he went on an adventure that ended up labeling him as a bit of an oddball.

In this scene we see Hobbiton and of Bag End, familiar sights for LotR film fans.

8) How did they look to you? Feel free to comment on what you liked or disliked about how Hobbiton and Bag End appeared. It was nice to see Hobbiton on screen again after ten years. I'm glad we got to see a little more of Bag End than we saw in the LotR movies, because I was always curious as to what the rest of Bag End looked like.

In this scene we see two characters very familiar to LotR film fans, Bilbo and Frodo.

9) How did they look to you? Feel free to comment on what you liked or disliked about seeing these characters, their interactions, and their appearance.

I was wondering who put that sign up that read: No admittance except on party business.

We see Frodo rummaging through Bilbo's things, finding the old sketch of Young Bilbo, a helmet, some sort of curved pointy thing (a claw? A horn?).

10) Did you find any of these intriguing? Which? What do you think they are? Did I miss any interesting items? I was curious about the helmet. At first glance I thought it might have belonged to one of the dwarves (I guess we'll have to wait until TABA to find out).

The dialogue includes references to one small treasure chest that still smells of Troll, and to Lobelia making off with silverware. Readers of the book can guess from these references that certain book scenes will be in the films.

11) Are there any other references I missed? And, did you like these hints of things to come? I recall Old Bilbo mentioning something about looking after Lobelia after he's gone to somewhere quiet (Rivendell) to finish his book (though he probably didn't want to reveal this to Frodo so that he didn't upset the lad). I don't mind references to things that will happen in later years, though it may make anyone new to the films (or books) a bit curious about those events and want to learn more about them.

The dialogue makes clear that we are seeing a scene from earlier in the day of the Long Expected Party in FotR.

12) Why do you think the filmmakers chose this day for this scene? Perhaps it didn't really fit in with the party scene in FotR, so they thought that they would include it here, to show us more interaction between Bilbo and Frodo.

13) Do you like this choice? I don't find anything wrong with it.

14) Putting yourself into the shoes of a viewer new to the books and films, what do you think such a viewer might make of this conversation? (The party? A veiled suggestion there is something Bilbo is hiding from his Frodo? That Bilbo is becoming odd and unsociable?) Maybe that there's a little more to Bilbo that meets the eye, sort of like Frodo in later years.

The scene ends after Frodo leaves, with Bilbo sitting outside on the bench and smoking his pipe. He is describing himself in the days before his adventure - always on time, entirely respectable, nothing unexpected ever happened. The title “An Unexpected Journey” appears over Bilbo's smoke ring.

15) What did you think of this way of ending the scene? It's a good way to tie these movies into those of the LotR trilogy, since most of us know already that Old Bilbo and Gandalf blow smoke rings in FotR.

Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.





(This post was edited by Queen of Erebor on Sep 24 2013, 2:47am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 24 2013, 6:41am

Post #40 of 44 (143 views)
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Also, they are probably the type of people ... [In reply to] Can't Post

To be watching Bag End. Once they had seen Gandalf arrive and Bilbo answer the door, they knew he was in and ignoring them.

There are plenty of possibilities as to who could have been knocking. Cool



cats16
Valinor


Sep 24 2013, 1:41pm

Post #41 of 44 (117 views)
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Are we ever told... [In reply to] Can't Post

where the S-B's live? Is it assumed to be Hobbiton?

I can't recall anything from the books off the top of my head.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 24 2013, 3:25pm

Post #42 of 44 (107 views)
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I don't think so. [In reply to] Can't Post

They can't have been living far - not when they were on top of Bag End whenever an opportunity arose. Wink



cats16
Valinor


Sep 24 2013, 4:38pm

Post #43 of 44 (88 views)
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Quite true, lol. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Faleel
Rohan

Sep 24 2013, 6:27pm

Post #44 of 44 (99 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

the swords are Orc swords from BO5A?

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