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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf getting the map and keys in Dol Guldur has been confirmed?

Glum
Bree

Sep 10 2013, 9:56pm

Post #1 of 22 (1195 views)
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Gandalf getting the map and keys in Dol Guldur has been confirmed? Can't Post

I read this relatively recent topic a minute ago http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=641138;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=93818211

and I noticed that Gandalf getting the map and keys IN DOL GULDUR is presented as a fact there. Well, my question is whether we know, without any doubt, that the grey wizard will obtain these objects in Dol Guldur and not in Moria or anywhere else? Because I've always felt that we do not know where exactly this scene takes place. (I once even started a new discussion where I tried to prove that DG is rather unlikely...) Did I miss anything? Thank you for your thoughts :)


flameofudun
Lorien

Sep 10 2013, 10:36pm

Post #2 of 22 (865 views)
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Hello! I was the one who posted that [In reply to] Can't Post

So I figure I can answer your question better than most. It was stated in an interview by Phillips boyens, and I sourced it in my article. Here's i will provide you with a link for your viewing pleasure, though.

http://www.vulture.com/m/2012/12/where-was-gandalfs-backstory-in-the-hobbit.html

So that basically confirms it, straight from the mouth of Philippa Boyens.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 11 2013, 3:22pm

Post #3 of 22 (660 views)
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The only real alternative would have been Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that Gandalf had visited Moria at some time before the War of the Rings. In Jackson's film-verse, it could have included the encounter with Thrain (although that no longer seems to be the case).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 11 2013, 4:13pm

Post #4 of 22 (659 views)
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Makes no sense to me... [In reply to] Can't Post

We know from AUJ that Gandalf only knows that Dol Guldur was an old fortress that was abandoned. IF Gandalf had met Thrain there (show in the prologue), then why didn't Gandalf save him then and bring him back with Thorin? Unless we see Thrain near death at the hands of the Orcs, and Gandalf comes to chase them away just before Thrain dies (but gets the key and map). Still, wouldn't Gandalf then know that Orcs had taken over Dol Guldur. More importantly, wouldn't Gandalf know that Greenwood is now Mirkwood, and so evil has crept into those lands?


vexx801
Rivendell


Sep 11 2013, 6:47pm

Post #5 of 22 (609 views)
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Hmm. [In reply to] Can't Post

One would expect Gandalf to know... but perhaps, I think, there is a small band of orcs torturing Thrain, and perhaps Gandalf fights them and some of them (the ones he doesn't kill) flee, and Gandalf assumes the fortress to be abandoned.

Or not. I'm sure someone could come up with something a lot more creative than that.


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 11 2013, 6:54pm

Post #6 of 22 (606 views)
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I use to think that, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless it was a while ago since Gandalf met Thrain in Dol Guldur and chased off whatever Orcs were there, Gandalf would have known that something was very wrong with that place.. like a Necromencer aka Sauron lurking around. Unless of course Sauron moved in right after Gandalf leaves.

We know Bolg is the Dol Guldur torturer, so he probably tortures Thrain for information. I still think Gandalf meets Thrain outside of Dol Guldur, and will see him again (as a crazy captured dwarf) when he visits Dol Guldur in DOS. That's my bet at least.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 11 2013, 7:08pm

Post #7 of 22 (589 views)
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Good idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Saruman told Gandalf that there was no longer any evil thing living in that place, so by the time of "The Hobbit" Gandalf believes it to be abandoned. "No Gandalf, tis not." It's not abandoned, perhaps it never was abandoned since last Gandalf checked.

Also, I think Gandalf does have some concern about Dol Guldur even before Radagast informs him of the Morgul Blade. "He keeps a watchful eye over the vast forest lands to the East and a good thing too for always evil will look to find a foothold in this world." Gandalf knew that Dol Guldur could be trouble.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Im afraid, and he gives me courage. - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.


elaen32
Gondor


Sep 11 2013, 7:39pm

Post #8 of 22 (586 views)
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Although.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman had good reason to want Sauron/Necromancer/evil things out of Dol Guldur, since by now he had worked out that the last known place that the One Ring had been was the Gladden Fields- not a million miles from DG. The last thing he wanted was servants of Sauron lurking around the area. That was the reason he was so keen to attack DG in the end, having resisted initially. Obviously the time scale was much more stretched out in the books


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 11 2013, 8:09pm

Post #9 of 22 (587 views)
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Yeah you're right [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot about that. Maybe once there is sufficient proof that Sauron is in Mirkwood, Saruman will be all for the attack, but (in the movieverse) right now Saruman is denying the fact that there is an evil presence in Dol Guldur. Perhaps he did the same earlier before AUJ. He could have scouted out the area and decided that there was nothing left to fear, and thus started the rumor that fortress was abandoned.

As far as Saruman wanting the ring, I'm worried that due to Christopher Lee's age that was his only scene in the movies and that this scene was cut. A sort of cameo for Christopher Lee, but now they have to get him out of the way as Gandalf, Galadriel and Radagast do their undercover work. Hopefully this is not the case and the side-plot of him looking for the ring will be included, but I fear the worst with this whole Dol Guldur sub-plot. Unsure

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Im afraid, and he gives me courage. - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Sep 11 2013, 8:09pm)


flameofudun
Lorien

Sep 11 2013, 8:57pm

Post #10 of 22 (588 views)
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Sylvester McCoy stated how [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a pleasure to work with Christopher lee. This is saying that he works with him in other hobbit movies. However, he goes on even to say that in the hobbit trilogy at some point(this was after AUJ) that he got to fight with Christopher lee as Saruman in a battle.(obviously the battle of dol guldur), where Christopher lee was "hurling around magic"

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Glum
Bree

Sep 11 2013, 9:10pm

Post #11 of 22 (552 views)
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Thanx :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Now it seems very likely Gandalf will get the keys in DG, although I still don't know why Gandalf has to meet Thrain twice and both times in Dol Guldur? Seems boring to me :)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 11 2013, 10:25pm

Post #12 of 22 (551 views)
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It is plausible that, if the encounter was decades back, not long after Gandalf had searched Moria, [In reply to] Can't Post

and perhaps been unable to save Thrain due to the presence of The Balrog, but learns that Thrain might be taken to Dol Guldur.. . . he could go there and Sauron, being less potent at the time, might have fled and hid himself (taking much of the evil taint with him) as he did when Gandalf first ventured to Dol Guldur nearly a thousand years before.

OR, Gandalf could have driven both orcs AND some unidentified evil Sorcerous power from Dol Guldur. There are several workable possibilities, the filmakers just have to make sure that they pick ONE of them and stick to it consistently, in a way that at no point ceases to make sense.

In Reply To
Unless it was a while ago since Gandalf met Thrain in Dol Guldur and chased off whatever Orcs were there, Gandalf would have known that something was very wrong with that place.. like a Necromencer aka Sauron lurking around. Unless of course Sauron moved in right after Gandalf leaves.

We know Bolg is the Dol Guldur torturer, so he probably tortures Thrain for information. I still think Gandalf meets Thrain outside of Dol Guldur, and will see him again (as a crazy captured dwarf) when he visits Dol Guldur in DOS. That's my bet at least.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 11 2013, 10:27pm

Post #13 of 22 (570 views)
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Well said. I didn't read the reaction to Radagast's words as shock, rather as [In reply to] Can't Post

a suspiscion that was hoped to be without foundation being unhappily confirmed.

In Reply To
Perhaps Saruman told Gandalf that there was no longer any evil thing living in that place, so by the time of "The Hobbit" Gandalf believes it to be abandoned. "No Gandalf, tis not." It's not abandoned, perhaps it never was abandoned since last Gandalf checked.

Also, I think Gandalf does have some concern about Dol Guldur even before Radagast informs him of the Morgul Blade. "He keeps a watchful eye over the vast forest lands to the East and a good thing too for always evil will look to find a foothold in this world." Gandalf knew that Dol Guldur could be trouble.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 11 2013, 11:27pm

Post #14 of 22 (550 views)
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Awesome! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's great news! I can't wait to see it! Smile Thanks for letting me know, I wasn't on here for a while there and I must have missed that.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because Im afraid, and he gives me courage. - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Sep 12 2013, 3:23am

Post #15 of 22 (529 views)
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thats a good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

regarding Saruman telling Gandalf it had been abandoned, he could have told Gandalf that in-order to "get him off his back" about the evil growing in Dol-Guldur. I hope if that is the case it is addressed at some point, because unless Gandalf finds Thrain in Moria it wouldn't make much sense for Gandalf to be surprised if he encountered evil there 50+ years prior.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Greypilgrim
Bree


Sep 12 2013, 3:48pm

Post #16 of 22 (497 views)
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Where did you find this info and when? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you tell us where you read this? Do you have a link to it? Christopher Lee was not in New Zealand for any part of the filming, his scenes were captured in London in front of a green screen, so he wont have actually worked with McCoy or any of the other actors face to face. I think this might just be an unfounded rumour unless they have an elaborate plan to use a body double in the battle of DG?



In Reply To
It was a pleasure to work with Christopher lee. This is saying that he works with him in other hobbit movies. However, he goes on even to say that in the hobbit trilogy at some point(this was after AUJ) that he got to fight with Christopher lee as Saruman in a battle.(obviously the battle of dol guldur), where Christopher lee was "hurling around magic"



(This post was edited by Greypilgrim on Sep 12 2013, 3:50pm)


flameofudun
Lorien

Sep 12 2013, 7:57pm

Post #17 of 22 (477 views)
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It was a while back I believe [In reply to] Can't Post

Before the DOS trailer came out. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could help me find it. It was at a convention, I believe a comic con, and it was a video, not an article. McCoy was on a panel with all 13 dwarves, also, and the question was asked via the fans. You know how the fans got to ask at that one panel? I also saw people discussing this as confirmation that Lee would be at the battle of dol guldur, in a rather non-physical role mind you, in some form or another. Just for reference, I remember it was the same interview where the one woman told about her (nephew?) that passed away before the hobbit came out, and talked about how she knew he would have loved it. I will try to find a link but in the meantime I would appreciate it if someone who saw this vouched for me.


EDIT-I remember now it was at Armageddon expo, not comic con,
I think.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli

(This post was edited by flameofudun on Sep 12 2013, 8:01pm)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 12 2013, 8:02pm

Post #18 of 22 (473 views)
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It was at Armageddon Expo... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was mentioned a couple of weeks ago, but the original thread, with video link, is here

McCoy seems to indicate that Saruman will be seen at a distance, orchestrating the attack on DG, perhaps from a ridge overlooking the action?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 12 2013, 8:13pm

Post #19 of 22 (476 views)
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What McCoy actually says [In reply to] Can't Post

is that he did not work with Christopher Lee (the opposite of what is claimed in this thread) and that he [Saruman] is "there but not there" at the unnamed big battle which presumably is Dol Guldur.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


flameofudun
Lorien

Sep 12 2013, 8:22pm

Post #20 of 22 (462 views)
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OK here is a link [In reply to] Can't Post

http://ca.search.yahoo.com/mobile/s?rewrite=72&.tsrc=apple&first=1&p=the+entire+hobbit+panel+at+armagheddon+expo&pintl=en&pcarrier=ROGERS&pmcc=302&pmnc=720&fr=onesearch


The question and answer I was paraphrasing is roughly at the 34:30 mark, however the whole video is worth a watch. Anyways, there you have it, he clearly states it. He did not actually work with Christopher lee as Saruman, phsically,however he worked with him digitally as lees scenes were filmed in London. There is confirmation for all who need it.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


flameofudun
Lorien

Sep 12 2013, 8:26pm

Post #21 of 22 (470 views)
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Yes. I apologize. I had only seen the video once at the Time [In reply to] Can't Post

And what stuck out to me in that sentence was Radaghast and Saruman were fighting the enemy at the battle of dol guldur.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 12 2013, 8:34pm

Post #22 of 22 (500 views)
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Not a problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wanted to clarify the point.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

 
 

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