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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Prologue to DoS???

Tprentss
Registered User

Sep 3 2013, 8:36pm

Post #1 of 13 (767 views)
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Prologue to DoS??? Can't Post

I have been pondering what the Prologue to The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug would be for some time now and I cannot really fathom what PJ will do for this scene. The prologues to his 4 tolkien universe films have been some of my favorite in all his story telling but this one has me stuck a bit.

My only thought is showing a history of the people of the lake like an intro to the line of Girion or something in this direction. I suppose it could follow Gandalf/Radagast in their dealings outside the company of the dwarves. Or possibly Galadriel and her dealings with Dol Guldor.

These are just thoughts and to spark discussion and to see what everyone thinks.

Thanks


sycorax82
Rohan

Sep 3 2013, 9:04pm

Post #2 of 13 (375 views)
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I think it's gonna show how Gandalf came to have the key [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that we'll go back to Azanulbizar and show Thrain's fate, then Gandalf finding him and the key, then Gandalf meeting Thorin at the Pony and a few other moments Peter will throw in.

Who knows, it could be completely different. It could focus on the animosity between the Elves and Dwarves.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Sep 3 2013, 10:20pm

Post #3 of 13 (345 views)
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We had this discussion less than a week ago [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a link to the thread:

http://newboards.theonering.net/...o=ASC;guest=93438293


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Sep 4 2013, 4:56am

Post #4 of 13 (233 views)
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It would seem... [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ may have written himself into a hole he cannot get out of...Unsure


morro91
Bree

Sep 4 2013, 6:21am

Post #5 of 13 (211 views)
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Doubtful of that [In reply to] Can't Post

Doubtful of that, they will have written all this beforehand. They are all good filmmakers and screenwriters


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 4 2013, 6:21am

Post #6 of 13 (220 views)
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Not at all [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at several of the comments higher up in that discussion thread, you'll find some very simple possible scenarios for Thrain's story arc in the films. Most of the criticism, in my opinion, was based on some dubious assumptions concerning minor nit-picks. In fact I see no problem with Thrain's story; mostly it has been taken from the books:

  • Thrain goes missing after the Battle of Azanulbizar. This we know from Balin's comment. Here Jackson and Co. have shortened the timeline for conciseness (in the books Thrain is not lost at the battle, but rather some time afterward).
  • Thrain is captured by Bolg and imprisoned in "the pits of ... Dol Guldur" (from Tolkien Wiki). He gives up his Ring of Power under torture. He is left to die in Dol Guldur.
  • On a mission to Dol Guldur, Gandalf encounters Thrain, "...so diminished that he had forgotten his own name." (from Tolkien Wiki). He gives Gandalf the map and key, which the Necromancer obviously had no interest in, and tells Gandalf to deliver them to his son. Gandalf agrees, but at that point does not know who "his son" might be. This can be the flashback shown in the trailer, when Gandalf enters Dol Guldur without Glamdring. He also sees no sign of anyone else in DG at that time.
  • Gandalf meets Thorin on the way to Bree, as in the books, and realizes that this must be the son that the old man spoke of. Gandalf becomes interested in the quest for Erebor.
  • Gandalf gives Thorin the map and key in Bag End. Thorin is surprised to be given the key, but apparently not surprised to hear that his father is / was alive.
  • Meeting Radagast at the Trollshaws, Gandalf says "...but the old fortress is abandoned." Radagast, however, tells him "No, Gandalf, 'tis not." Gandalf begins to realize he may have made a mistake in assuming that Dol Guldur was abandoned.
  • This necessitates a second trip to Dol Guldur. We have seen this in the DOS trailer, and this time Gandalf has Glamdring. He apparently encounters Thrain again. How? we don't know yet. Either Thrain never really died, or he has been brought back from the dead by the necromancer. In this scene we will probably meet Bolg, and by the end of the scene Gandalf will have a good idea who this "Necromancer" really is.



Thus the two-part exploration of Dol Guldur by Gandalf. Really I see no major plot holes or contradictions.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




QuackingTroll
Valinor


Sep 4 2013, 12:57pm

Post #7 of 13 (167 views)
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Why does The Necromancer allow Gandalf to walk in and out again with the map and key? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't this have been a great time for The Necromancer to ambush Gandalf?

Why is Thrain left alive in Dol Guldur for so long?

Why doesn't Gandalf make any attempt to save Thrain if he assumes Dol Guldur is abandoned? Clearly Thrain doesn't die if we meet him again on the second trip.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 4 2013, 1:51pm

Post #8 of 13 (159 views)
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A Good Question: [In reply to] Can't Post

This begs a question I've never seen discussed: What (if anything) did Sauron / The Necromancer know about Gandalf at that time? Was he perceived as a powerful enemy? Or did Gandalf's "old man" exterior succeed in allowing him to work against Sauron without being noticed? This may explain how (in both book and movie) Gandalf walks into Dol Guldur and obtains the map and key from Thrain without much trouble.


Quote
Wouldn't this have been a great time for The Necromancer to ambush Gandalf?


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 4 2013, 2:53pm

Post #9 of 13 (155 views)
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A nasty, dangerous business it was... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Even !, Gandalf, only just escaped. I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering,, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and the key." (An Unexpected Party, The Hobbit)

We also know, from UT, The Quest of Erebor, that Gandalf entered DG "in disguise" and that Thrain died after giving Gandalf the map and key, which is why he didn't manage to save him.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Sep 4 2013, 3:29pm

Post #10 of 13 (128 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

the movie is called: The Desolation of Smaug...

From there I think the Old Took party with Bilbo being the only hobbit child amazed enough to not run away scared by Gandalf's dragon firework would be just perfect.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Sep 4 2013, 4:49pm

Post #11 of 13 (117 views)
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None of this works in the film version, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

What with Gandalf assuming Dol Guldur is abandoned and Thrain still being alive when Gandalf has Glamdring etc.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 4 2013, 8:16pm

Post #12 of 13 (92 views)
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Oh i realize that! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've going round and round in circles trying to make sense of the brief clips we've seen so far and nothing seems to coalesce!

I was simply replying to Dwellers' comment about the ease of Gandalf's recce:


Quote



This may explain how (in both book and movie) Gandalf walks into Dol Guldur and obtains the map and key from Thrain without much trouble.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 4 2013, 8:57pm

Post #13 of 13 (121 views)
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Same here! [In reply to] Can't Post

When I see the movie though, it will all make sense. Then I'll feel like an idiot for not guessing it the first time.

Anyone who's read Sherlock Holmes knows this feeling:

"Drat, outsmarted by a book, a BOOK!"

 
 

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