Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why an attack on the Beornings is no fan-fiction (Spoilers)

Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Aug 31 2013, 7:00pm

Post #1 of 21 (914 views)
Shortcut
Why an attack on the Beornings is no fan-fiction (Spoilers) Can't Post

When I first read the news that Azog might destroy all of Beorns kin except for Beorn himself I thought three things but I found some explanations and yes most of them came directly from Tolkiens writings itself and not from Peter Jacksons imagination.


1) I thought Beorn was just a huge man with the ability of skin-changing and not part of a different race
--> We don't know from Tolkien if Beorn was only a huge man with a special ability or indeed member of a different men-like race. But we know that after him there was a group of skin-changers called "Beornings" led by Beorns son Grimbeorn and they were described as a different race of men


Quote
Lord of the Rings Wiki: Beornings also known as skin-changers were a race of men that were able to change into bears.



2) Attacking the Beornings... again some kind of Peter Jacksons fan-fiction?
--> I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought that. BUT Tolkien himself mentioned an attack on Beorns kin in FOTR. When Frodo wears the Ring at Amon Hen he sees many things from far away. One of these things is the land of the Beornings burning. This hints at an attack by Saurons forces. It is not known if this was only a vision or indeed happening and it is not known as well who won. So the images are in the source material and I can imagine that Peter Jackson and his team noticed that too and transported it into The Hobbit to give a bit more backstory to Beorn. In Tolkiens version Beorn was the first of his kin but what if he's the last? There was no Beorning in the LOTR movies so this would explain why.


Quote
The Fellowship Of The Ring Chapter 22: But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien.



3) Why is Azogs part growing every day?
--> It's all in another thread: So...just how much more prominent is Azog's role going to be?




What do you think???


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Aug 31 2013, 7:09pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 31 2013, 9:31pm

Post #2 of 21 (435 views)
Shortcut
Am I being daft? [In reply to] Can't Post

When was this ever mentioned?


Quote
When I first read the news that Azog might destroy all of Beorns kin except for Beorn himself


I might be able to comment then. Wink

I always assumed that Beorn was the only Beorning (or one of a very few) during the time of The Hobbit. I've also assumed that Grimbeorn (and other descendants) were not born until after The Hobbit (and after the Necromancer was revealed) - especially since no others of his race are mentioned (unless the ones he "danced" with in the night were Beornings.) Who knows.

Therefore, in the film universe, are there enough of them around for Azog to kill?



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Aug 31 2013, 9:50pm

Post #3 of 21 (405 views)
Shortcut
DOS Annual spoiler [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'Beorn is the last shape-shifter in the whole of Middle-earth. Most of his kind were killed by Azog, so when Beorn finds out that The Company are fleeing from Azog, he agrees to help them.'

This was posted by narflet as a spoiler from the DOS Annual book

So book: Beorn = first Beorning
movie: Beorn = last Beorning

Understood?




"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 31 2013, 10:04pm

Post #4 of 21 (372 views)
Shortcut
Me being daft then ... I've already read it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Understood loud and clear, this time. Wink

Another point to note: take a look at the action figure for Bolg. That is unmistakably a bear skin (and claws) on his back. And we know Beorn is involved in a torture scene (either being the torturer or torturee).

Hmmm, so yes. Although some deviation (more Beornings, Azog/Bolg personally killing them), it does seem sense to portray it that way in the films. Especially in a film adaptation, Beorn's motivation for joining in the Battle (perhaps) needs more emphasis. Perhaps this is the perfect way.

Smile



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 31 2013, 10:05pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 10:43pm

Post #5 of 21 (358 views)
Shortcut
well technically it is... [In reply to] Can't Post

since someone else threw up the term here is the definition I know some people do not like the term but here is the definition from the internet dictionary site www.urbandictionary.com since I know nobody believes me feel free to look it up yourself Tongue

I do not mean the term in a dirogitory way at all I only mean it in written by someone other than the author and Jackson has claimed many times to be a fan. just stating the facts as I see them.

fan fic·tionnounnoun: fanfiction1. fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc. (which I believe etc... would mean book as well)

Beorn was the only shape shifter of his time the first of his kind Tolkien tells us this explicitly Then goes on to create the Beornings mentioned at the end of the Hobbit and briefly in LOTR. for Jackson to take those characters and write an original portion of the story with those characters being wiped out by Azog before the time of Bilbo's adventure. No way around it IMO Jackson is writing fanfiction. Yes its on a more professional level but it is still material written by a fan (Jackson/ Boyen's) and not the author. whether its good or bad remains to be seen. But it is what it is.



Found this on the official Tolkien society webpage and this section stood out to me. Which is the actual Tolkien estates views from a question submitted on their site regarding "fanfiction" I know the Hobbit doesn't fall under this since Tolkien did sell the rights( but hopefully someday IMO)Smile But this is how he obviously must have felt and his family and estate feel now.


Quote
Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)
The simple answer is NO.
You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".
Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.
The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment.



DeadRabbits
Lorien


Aug 31 2013, 11:13pm

Post #6 of 21 (357 views)
Shortcut
This is OT, but with Tolkien Estate's harsh viewpoint regarding fan fiction, it's kind of strange that Russian author Nick Perumov manished to write and publish a whole trilogy set in Tolkien's Middle Earth... [In reply to] Can't Post

... in the fourth age. The books have been translated from Russian to other languages (I bought the Swedish edition of the first book in the series "The Elven Blade" to my sister for Christmas a couple of years ago).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Perumov

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 11:18pm

Post #7 of 21 (335 views)
Shortcut
Um, well, I'd say technically it isn't... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the script isn't being written by a fan, for pleasure, but by professional screen writers, as a job, for a film. That doesn't fit the definition.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 11:19pm

Post #8 of 21 (350 views)
Shortcut
Probably depends [In reply to] Can't Post

on if they are based on characters from LOTR or something all original. LOTR they would have to get permission from the current holder Saul Zaentz, all original characters as long as they don't really reference anything in Tolkien's other works other than LOTR and the Hobbit would probably go thru him too. So the Tolkien estate wouldn't really be involved unless it was the Sil, UT, or anything else that Christopher Tolkien or JRR Tolkien wrote and published and still own the rights to.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 11:21pm

Post #9 of 21 (351 views)
Shortcut
its not the author or anyone acting on his behalf [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess its open to interpretation or denial which ever Wink


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Sep 1 2013, 4:07am

Post #10 of 21 (281 views)
Shortcut
... [In reply to] Can't Post

My recollection from The Hobbit was that Beorn was the only skinchanger mentioned, and it wasn't until reading LoTR that I learned about his descendants (the Beornings.)

So I don't see why I should be upset about the movie giving Beorn this added incentive to hate Orcs. It seems like it would fit the narrative pretty well. It certainly doesn't prevent Beorn from fathering a bunch of children and giving us the Beornings we later read about in LoTR.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 1 2013, 2:48pm

Post #11 of 21 (218 views)
Shortcut
But, the Beornings don't exist yet. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are no Beornings, as a group, until after the Quest of Erebor, when Beorn takes his place as a leader of the Woodmen.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 2:52pm

Post #12 of 21 (227 views)
Shortcut
Didn't you read the whole text? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know Wink That's why I wrote:

Quote
"So the images are in the source material and I can imagine that Peter Jackson and his team noticed that too and transported it into The Hobbit to give a bit more backstory to Beorn. In Tolkiens version Beorn was the first of his kin but what if he's the last? There was no Beorning in the LOTR movies so this would explain why."



"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 1 2013, 3:01pm

Post #13 of 21 (203 views)
Shortcut
Apparently I missed that [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in a bit of a rush today because of the gaming convention. I would find this very annoying; Tolkien intentionally left Beorn as a bit of a mystery, so I don't see any need to give him a more detailed backstory--much less one that changes his background.

Hell, Tolkien provided no other information on Skin-changers in general. We don't know that they were a distinct group or if the ability was one learned/gained by various, unrelated people at different times.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 3:03pm

Post #14 of 21 (196 views)
Shortcut
But it's not totally made up, just transported [In reply to] Can't Post

We've got many quotes there too. Just remember the Old Man Willow/Treebeard/Bombadil part. Bombadil wasn't in the FOTR movie, Old Man Willow wasn't either. But they descided to put a quotation of this "lost chapter" in their adaptation of TTT.

So they transported something from one book to another. And I see the same here. So it's actually no fan-fiction. They're just expanding stuff. And if this happens long before AUJ Azog is still alive (in book-canon).


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 3:34pm

Post #15 of 21 (190 views)
Shortcut
No one choses the life of an eremite without reason [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm in a bit of a rush today because of the gaming convention.

--> Gamescon or Pax?


Quote
Hell, Tolkien provided no other information on Skin-changers in general.

Heaven, Tolkien provided no other information on some of the dwarves of Thorins company except for one or two of them as well. But aren't they even more interessting for the audience if they look different and act different because they are different? Again this is a movie trilogy and not a book. If you've got an important character like Beorn who will be in two movies and does important stuff... you have to know something more than: Well he likes honey, dislikes Dwarves and really hates Orcs and Goblins. You want to know WHY? At least why he hates them so much. What did they do to him? There has to be a reason.

We know from the book that Beorn was living a live without anyone else (except for his animals). But why was he alone? What happened to him? No one choses the life of an eremite without reason. The genocide on your own kin by Orcs is a very good reason, if you ask me. That would give him a reason to live a life as an eremite and to hate Orcs.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Morthoron
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 4:22pm

Post #16 of 21 (192 views)
Shortcut
It is made up and it is fan-fiction... [In reply to] Can't Post

You make the argument that the Beorn storyline was "transported" from LotR based on information about Grimbeorn the Old, his son, and the Woodsmen he ruled. Then you modify it to make Beorn the last survivor of his folk (before he even had folk) in order to give the character a "background".

In essence, what you are purporting to be a factual transportation of plot is fan-fiction, and PJ and crew are abysmal fan-fiction writers. They mutilate whatever they change. Would it not be enough that Beorn is a solitary individual due to his skin-changing ability? This is particularly relevant given most people's inability to get along with anyone different -- societies often outcast the alien, the foreigner, the "other".

Perhaps it makes more sense that Beorn became more inclusive and less solitary due to the growing menace of Sauron. Maybe Beorn learns to get along with other folk and becomes their leader through necessity; after all, he can't defend the passes alone. And the woodsmen finally come to the realization that they need Beorn more so than he needs them. He adapts and grows as a character, and the Woodsmen accept Beorn as he is, rather than having some inane fan-fic bitterness regarding having his family wiped out. That is just another layer of superfluity PJ might add to an already overburdened mess.

Meanwhile, The Hobbit, one Bilbo Baggins, slips further and further from his central role because PJ insists on adding more and more subplots that do nothing to move the central story along. The film has become an asteroid belt of junk revolving around the remains of a planet.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 4:28pm

Post #17 of 21 (186 views)
Shortcut
Thanks I just noticed something [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't read the Annual book but if they write about "his kin" do they talk about "skin-changers" oder just "kin"... perhaps they're talking about the Woodmen who were all killed by Azog... although they were mentioned in AUJ... hmm well this idea is not so well thought out Tongue I'm working on it.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Sep 1 2013, 7:41pm

Post #18 of 21 (158 views)
Shortcut
Meanwhile, The Hobbit, one Bilbo Baggins, [In reply to] Can't Post

 slips further and further from his central role because PJ insists on adding more and more subplots that do nothing to move the central story along. The film has become an asteroid belt of junk revolving around th

So it seems.


But hey, its the appendices expansion!!!! Wink

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Sep 1 2013, 10:18pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 2 2013, 3:21am

Post #19 of 21 (116 views)
Shortcut
Book vs. Film [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
--> Gamescon or Pax?



Neither, I ran a game of The One Ring this afternoon at Queen City Conquest, the Buffalo, NY gaming convention that has just completed its second year. I thought I could have done better, but everyone had a good time so I'm satisfied for now. I used a download of the adventure "Words of the Wise" which was originally run at GenCon 2011.


Quote

Heaven, Tolkien provided no other information on some of the dwarves of Thorins company except for one or two of them as well. But aren't they even more interessting for the audience if they look different and act different because they are different? Again this is a movie trilogy and not a book. If you've got an important character like Beorn who will be in two movies and does important stuff... you have to know something more than: Well he likes honey, dislikes Dwarves and really hates Orcs and Goblins. You want to know WHY? At least why he hates them so much. What did they do to him? There has to be a reason.

We know from the book that Beorn was living a live without anyone else (except for his animals). But why was he alone? What happened to him? No one choses the life of an eremite without reason. The genocide on your own kin by Orcs is a very good reason, if you ask me. That would give him a reason to live a life as an eremite and to hate Orcs.



As I posted earlier (elsewhere?), Tolkien left Beorn''s origins as a deliberate mystery and I think that Jackson should have respected that. The audience doesn't need extensive background on every supporting character in the film and every motive doesn't need to be explained. Gandalf does say that Beorn isn't fond of Dwarves, but I don't think he ever indicated that he hates them outright--such venom is reserved for Orcs and Wargs. And, for me, that's enough.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Yngwulff
Gondor


Sep 2 2013, 3:57am

Post #20 of 21 (105 views)
Shortcut
I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As I posted earlier (elsewhere?), Tolkien left Beorn''s origins as a deliberate mystery and I think that Jackson should have respected that. The audience doesn't need extensive background on every supporting character in the film and every motive doesn't need to be explained. Gandalf does say that Beorn isn't fond of Dwarves, but I don't think he ever indicated that he hates them outright--such venom is reserved for Orcs and Wargs. And, for me, that's enough.



He's damned if he does or doesn't
If he doesn't then one bunch will be clammoring about lack of character development and if he does then he didn't respect JRRT enough ... catch 22

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 2 2013, 4:05am

Post #21 of 21 (103 views)
Shortcut
You're right, of course [In reply to] Can't Post

One can rarely (if ever) please everyone. Most filmmakers are content if they are happy with the final cut.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.