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If you could ask professor Tolkien one question what would it be?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 5 2008, 8:36am

Post #51 of 71 (807 views)
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That's a well-known quote. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't mean to stifle conversation (though I would like to stifle the shouting) when I write that we have discussed at great length what it means. Believe it or not, Tolkien's comment is subject to interpretation. And this without even raising the matter of "intentional fallacy" or asking if perhaps Tolkien was dissembling.

For instance, since Tolkien also writes that the story of LotR takes place in our world in an imaginary time long ago, i.e. long before, in Catholic tradition, anyone was redeemed, shouldn't all the mortals in his world go to Hell when they die? At least for a few thousand years? How can these statements be reconciled?

Here's another one: in Tolkien's mythology, death is a gift. In the Bible, death is a punishment. Why the difference?

(I welcome corrections on matters of theology.)

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jan 5 2008, 8:49am

Post #52 of 71 (810 views)
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No Open Interpretation.... [In reply to] Can't Post

As for 'sceamimg', I'm not. I just like to type capitol letters to emphsys, SCREAMIMG ONLIE IS WHEN YOU TYPE ALL CAOPTLOL LETTERS LIKE THIS!!!!!!

Peace, MIKE


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2008, 10:00am

Post #53 of 71 (807 views)
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No open interpretation? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a bit narrow-minded of you, sir. Every story has an interpretation; whether you agree with a certain interpretation or not is your own prerogative, but people are allowed to intrepretate as they wish, and there is no one in this world who can say that such interpretations should not exist. As for the letter in itself, I looked it up; it was to Father Murray, a close friend of Tolkien, and of course closely involved with the Church; this would set the mood for the letter, and for what Tolkien says in it. I looked up another letter, this time to Houghton Mifflin (Letter 165), and the wording was much less set on being "Catholic":

"It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'.... I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world." The term "natural theology" could be interpreted in many ways by 21st century readers, depending on their own cultural background and experiences. After doing some quick research on the word "theology" itself, people may interpret his usage of the word as they would, considering its definition seems to have shifted a bit over the years, and that there are many grey areas in it. Why may people interpret his letters, and his books, as they wish? I'll let the Professor sum that up, from letter 328:

"Of course The L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child."

Of course JRRT is not around anymore, but even as he said himself; if LOTR does not belong to him, then who is anyone to outright dismiss my interpretations and state your own interpretations as fact? Even if your own interpretation was similar, if not the same, as Tolkien's, that does not matter; his literature belongs to the world and many interpretations will come out of it, from renowned scholars to unknown students. But each and every interpretation has just as much merit as an opinion does.

Good day, sir.
Laire

PS. Speaking in capslock is considered shouting on these forums and the mods don't like it all that much (even if it doesn't have exclamation marks :P)

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(This post was edited by Ainu Laire on Jan 5 2008, 10:04am)


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 1:09pm

Post #54 of 71 (802 views)
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Why would I want to argue with you on this? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've discussed this very issue many times on Torn and never (prior to this discussion) seen it deteriorate into sides-taking on quite this level.

Interesting. I see you're new to the boards and might want to look around a bit. Generally speaking (and all families have their little spats) we can discuss very emotional issues such as this with a certain level of decorum.


Quote
Agreed that Tolkien was NOT rewritting the bible - that's absued.

I NEVER said that.




I don't believe I said you did. I was expressing my opinion that Tolkien did not set out to rewrite the Bible. His creation story, for instance, is not a "re-write" of the Bible story. He did not use the Bible as a template for his story. Don't look for offense where it wasn't offered.



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Tolkien said that his story WAS a Christian story & therefore he avoided ANY form of overt religion within his created world - do I need to search his Letters to find the exact quote?
I will if you want me to as I just read it this week.





I am very glad you have read his Letters, as have many of us. I first read them in the 1980s myself, in a library copy. I bought the paperback edition in 1996 and have read it twice since then. We discussed Letters at length in the Reading Room in 2005. In fact, the very letter you are searching for (and I see that you quote from later in this thread) was discussed at length here.

Letters is a valuable aide for those of us trying to understand some of Tolkien's works, but they are first of all edited and second of all not meant to be instructive to us. So we risk taking things out of context. And Tolkien himself wrote a lot of them after the fact, after he had finished LOTR and published it and seen the reactions to it.

I personally believe much as you do (I believe I've already said this): that LOTR is a Christian and specifically Roman Catholic work. But only in the sense that Tolkien brought that understanding of his primary world to his secondary world, and much of the moral backbone (and some of the underlying imagery) is that of a 20th century pre-Vatican two English Roman Catholic.

I'd really prefer to not have this discussion at all if it deteriorates into exclamation points. I'd like to suggest that if you want to continue to debate this point (and after reading that sample of the arguments back and forth for the level of discussion you can expect to find) you bring your arguments to the RR, cite some text, and state your opinion without a lot of animosity. And you might be pleasantly surprised at the results, although if you are expecting people to simply respond with an affirmation, you are on the wrong discussion board.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Faith, hope, and charity--
These three.
But the greatest of these
Is charity.
~~~1 Corinthians 13:13


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 1:12pm

Post #55 of 71 (794 views)
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I'm a girl, my dear :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

although the "girl" part is rather a compliment than a reality (I mean, I'm...that is to say...well, there's no help for it...older than a girl!)

Some might say that my avatar looks a lot like me, but some who said that need to get new glasses themselves!

LOL



a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Faith, hope, and charity--
These three.
But the greatest of these
Is charity.
~~~1 Corinthians 13:13


hatster
Rohan


Jan 5 2008, 1:32pm

Post #56 of 71 (793 views)
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No problem, and a linky to an old reading room discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, As many have noted we've been through this before. I guess my response was not to make a point about literary tropes whose definitions are nearly impossible to pin down, but really to caution against the easy answer ("But Tolkien hated allegory!) whenever the question of religion and his works comes up. The old Episcopalian in me always looks for the middle way perhaps. Anyway....

Obviously this topic has come up time and time again in the reading room, but my favorite free for all on Christian imagery was this one even if I didn't come out of it all that well. I think I scored a few points even if I was outnumbered.

Among the posts there was mine on trying to nail down these terms... and you can see how slippery they are.

Anywhoooo, hope you find it interesting.

I have lost the dwarves and I have lost the wizard, and I don't know where I am; and I don't want to know, if only I can get away.


Elven
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 2:01pm

Post #57 of 71 (778 views)
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LOL!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Wink

I have been trying to follow this for years ad even posted about it before, but with no reply. But way back I marked two passages in some obscure publication which I think may have been more to do with Crowley than Tolkien - so they were not LOTR or Hobbit related as such, but it was mentioned.
I think some people thought I was talking about 'Heavens Gate' ... but this is something different - but do you think I can find where I spotted and read this. NOOOOO!!

So I'd love to ask!

Cheers Lily
Elven


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Elven
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 3:36pm

Post #58 of 71 (771 views)
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In a round about sense ... [In reply to] Can't Post

they would/may have had a commonality - although their paths would have been wide apart. They were both born in England and had a very religious upbringing and maintained a religious conviction of sorts throughout their lives.
On a scholarly level, both understood writing and literature as both were authors and poets.
They both understood their fields of ancient mysticism and magic studying other cultures and history.
They both had acedemic qualifications and went to College in Oxford.
They persued the quest for similar answers to life and man - in their own ways through their writings on some level.
They would have both heard of each other in their day - though their opinions may have differed dramatically - its not impossible at the time that Crowley who had a fond distatste to EA Waite and Keats - had read Tolkien, or visa versa. Tolkien may have been familiar with Waites work.

Some stuff from Wiki below ... most of the Wiki entry relates to Crowleys notoriety though.

Crowley was born in Warwichshire England in 1875, he had a religious upbringing, although Brethren, and was tutored by his father in religious studies from a young age.

There's so much written about Crowley, alot of it speculation and misunderstanding, some of it outlandish, but some of it true, its hard to get a decent 'picture' of this complex personality ... but there were common denominators which makes me think they could have crossed paths.

Crowley was born in Britain in Warwickshire in 1875

Crowley grew up in a staunch Brethren household and was only allowed to play with children whose families followed the same faith. His father was a fanatical preacher, travelling around Britain and producing pamphlets. Daily Bible studies and private tutoring were mainstays in "Alick's" childhood.

In 1895, Crowley went to Trinity college in Cambridge after schooling at the public schools Malvern College and Tonbridge School, and originally had the intention of reading Moral Sciences (philosophy), but with approval from his personal tutor, he switched to English literature, which was not then a part of the curriculum offered. His three years at Cambridge were happy ones,
(Public schools in England are private schools)

In December of 1896, following an event that he describes in veiled terms, Crowley decided to pursue a path in occultism and mysticism. By the next year, he began reading books by alchemists and mystics, and books on magic.
It is said he He worked for British Intelegence during war years, and that his 'codes' and secret writings were used.
Crowley played chess and was very good at it - he was a member of the Cambridge Chess Team.
He was also Mountaineer, and led several expeditions at climbs in Nepal and India - though they did not make the summits.

Crowley was a poet ...Crowley was also a published, if minor, poet. He wrote the 1929 Hymn to Pan, perhaps his most widely read and anthologised poem.Three pieces by Crowley, "The Quest", "The Neophyte", and "The Rose and the Cross", appear in the 1917 collection The Oxford Book of English Mystical Verse.
Some of his published poetry includes:
  • White Stains (1898).
  • Alice, an Adultery (1903).
  • The Sword of Song (1904).
  • The Star and the Garter. (1904).
  • Orpheus, a Lyrical Legend (two volumes, 1905).
  • Snowdrops From a Curate’s Garden. (1904).
  • Clouds without Water ("by the Reverend C. Verey", 1909)
  • The Scented Garden of Abdullah the Satirist of Shiraz. ( "translated by Major Lutiy", 1910).
  • Aha ! (1910)
  • Ambergris: the Selected Poems of Aleister Crowley (1910)
  • The Winged Beetle. (1912).
  • Olla, an Anthology of Sixty years of Song (1946, his last published work)


Most of his books were of a religious magical theme. Though there are is much in the way of channelling, ritaul, codes and hyroglyphic writings, voice magic, life after death, transcendence, ritual tools, higher order of man ...

He was an author of many books.

He lived his retirement in Hastings and was buried in Brighton.



Some searches for sacred texts and alternative religious both bring up Tolkien and Crowley in similar areas - so I see a resemblance in their purpose -
So I think they called have talked and understood each other ...
But Im still trying to find where I read this *sigh*


For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more... and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words. - JRR Tolkien
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - Aleister Crowley




The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jan 5 2008, 6:18pm

Post #59 of 71 (801 views)
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Tolerance Twisting 'Interpretation'I [In reply to] Can't Post

 Every story has an interpretation; whether you agree with a certain interpretation or not is your own prerogative,

Really?
This isn't a 'story', it's a STATEMENT.
So, Laire, if that's true, interpret this statement in a different light:

'JRR Tolkien wrote The Lord Of The Rings'

True or not?

Fact or opinion?

There's no interpretation here is there?

It's a simple fact, just as is Tolkien's own statement about TLOR's being a 'reiglious & Catholic work'.....

As I'll just be going in circles, I won't belabor the point.
And for the record, A.S., I never said Middle-Earth was a Christian world - just that Tolkien said what I wrote above.
Talk about putting words in somebody's mouth.

And I maybe new to POSTING here, but hardly to Tolkien sights or his works, which I've been reading over 30 years now, as many of you have for years. And, I'm so glad that you too, A.S., have been reading his Letters for 20 years.

I simply haven't found many interesting subjects on this site (gushing over Peter Jackson or who should be in 'The Hobbit movie doesn't cut it for me) or much personal time to bother spending online to post much. Only on checking into the status on 'The Hobbit' movie did I decide to come into this message board.

I think the real root of the issue here is the fact that you folks don't wish to see that Tolkien wrote this book from a Christian/Catholic viewpoint (as he clearly states). It wouldn't matter if he wrote that letter to Murray, The Pope, Billy Graham, The Dali Lama, a lama, Jimi Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones or John Bohnam (whichever member of Led Zepelin bought Allistar Crowley's house) or Allistar Crowley himself.
What he wrote is what he wrote.......

In this age of 'tolerance' & relativism, folks want to change truth to fit their own agendas so they can feel more comfortable about what they say & do, but you can't change facts no matter how hard you try.

However, I know I have no more chance of convincing any of you of this than I would of convincing you that Jesus is really the Son of God - and therein lies the heart of this problem.

So, I'll bow out of this discussion & let you have the last word - otherwise this will go on ad nauseum

Peace (really), Mike


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 5 2008, 6:43pm

Post #60 of 71 (782 views)
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That's not all that's getting in a twist. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I simply haven't found many interesting subjects on this site (gushing over Peter Jackson or who should be in The Hobbit movie doesn't cut it for me) or much personal time to bother spending online to post much.



I'm sorry you feel that way. Have you tried reading the older discussion of this subject, using the links that hatster provides above? And what would you like to discuss here? Feel free to start a new discussion in the appropriate forum. Also, as you are interested enough in the Hobbit film(s) to find your way to these boards, why do you feel that issues of casting are unimportant? Surely the selection of actors will make a big difference as to how well Tolkien's work translates to the screen.


Quote
'J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings'... It's a simple fact, just as is Tolkien's own statement about LotR being a 'religious & Catholic work'.....



So Tolkien's interpretive comment about his work is equal to a verifiable statment of fact?
And why do you suggest, far down the page, that Tolkien's writing on Glorfindel's reincarnation needs to be considered in "the context it was written", but not afford the same consideration to Tolkien's letter to Fr. Murray, as Ainu Laire has done?


Quote
I think the real root of the issue here is the fact that you folks don't wish to see that Tolkien wrote this book from a Christian/Catholic viewpoint


There are a multitude of opinions here about Tolkien's work, and even to lump just two people's ideas together oversimplifies: a.s. and Ainu Laire's thoughts about the Catholicism of Tolkien's work are not at all the same.


Quote
What he wrote is what he wrote


As noted on the Movie board, Tolkien wrote, in the Foreword to the Second Edition of LotR, that he began work on that book before September 1937. He was wrong, but since he wrote it...


Quote
So, I'll bow out of this discussion and let you have the last word...


Thanks!

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".


sador
Half-elven

Jan 5 2008, 6:46pm

Post #61 of 71 (768 views)
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I would have tried to answer you before [In reply to] Can't Post

But I saw your answer just as I was closing the coimputer before the Shabbath came in.
Anyway, your claim about Frodo's announcement was very interesting, and I hope to read other such comments from you. But it sounds to me more like an artistic image, than expounding the religious significance of Tolkien world. But I might be mistaken, and can wait the five weeks untill we get to the Council of Elrond (BTW, you've 'promised' me we'll discuss Tom Bombadil then; but that chapter is so full, that if you won't be able to, I shan't hold you to your word).
I think a deeper religious meaning could be found in 'The Last Debate'; and also in 'The Window on the West' - although I'm afraid I'll have other axes to grind in that chapter.


Woodyend
Gondor


Jan 5 2008, 6:51pm

Post #62 of 71 (772 views)
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So why don't you start some threads that you think are interesting. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I simply haven't found many interesting subjects on this site (gushing over Peter Jackson or who should be in 'The Hobbit movie doesn't cut it for me) or much personal time to bother spending online to post much. Only on checking into the status on 'The Hobbit' movie did I decide to come into this message board.

Peace (really), Mike


This board is very diverse, and has something for every kind of fan of the books or movies. You may want to check out the Reading Room for more in depth conversations

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 5 2008, 6:57pm

Post #63 of 71 (782 views)
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I can't find the exact reference quickly [In reply to] Can't Post

but didn't Tolkien like to think that he merely discovered Middle-earth, and didn't actually create it? That he might have technically written the words, but he was more the vessel instead of the source.

Of course, we know that's not true, but at times Tolkien might have thoughts that the words he was writing were flowing through him.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 7:07pm

Post #64 of 71 (757 views)
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Look forward to it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, we'll be discussing Tom B again in "Council"...at least, we always have so far. He comes up again in conversation there so we usually have some speculations.

Cool

It should be interesting. Glad you are planning to stick around!

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Faith, hope, and charity--
These three.
But the greatest of these
Is charity.
~~~1 Corinthians 13:13


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 5 2008, 7:15pm

Post #65 of 71 (773 views)
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well, I'm sorry. I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry you feel I am putting words in your mouth; far from my intention.

I believe we basically agree, as a matter of fact. Or agree on some of the issues, anyway. In fact, if you'll read the previous discussions that both hatster and I have sent links to, you'll see how often this is discussed and how close we probably come to meeting in the middle.

But I also think it's a good idea to leave this topic alone, here, in this thread, at this time, because it is obviously causing hurt feelings. If that's my "last word", it's probably a good one.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Faith, hope, and charity--
These three.
But the greatest of these
Is charity.
~~~1 Corinthians 13:13


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 5 2008, 8:18pm

Post #66 of 71 (753 views)
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Very well [In reply to] Can't Post

All has been said that needs to be said; well and good.

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Milady
Rivendell


Jan 5 2008, 10:43pm

Post #67 of 71 (738 views)
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Not exactly what I meant [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, I guess I should have specified- I meant, of what importance are they in Middle-Earth that Gandalf knows what they are and calls them that?

Interesting, though: he does that with Theoden King (king king) and the town of Bree (the town of town) too.

Middle-Earth stands on the brink of destruction.


Musashi
Bree


Jan 7 2008, 12:55pm

Post #68 of 71 (722 views)
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More background on the Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

Like the subject says, I'd ask Prof. Tolkien for more information about the men who became the Nazgul. In particular, The Lord of The Nine.

If I had one more question, I'd ask him: What geographically speaking were east and south of his published maps?


Narya
The Shire

Jan 7 2008, 8:32pm

Post #69 of 71 (716 views)
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I think you are right [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course it's hard for any creator to see someone else "interpret" their work. In Jackson's case, for all that they were great entertainment, the director changed and even subverted much, sometimes unnecessarily, in the opinion of many, and I don't think that Tolkien would have approved. I think the Tolkien Estate appreciated this and they did the right thing by absolutely refusing to endorse or approve any of the movies.

Even the wise cannot see all ends.


SandWitch King
Rohan


Jan 7 2008, 10:43pm

Post #70 of 71 (715 views)
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He was busy [In reply to] Can't Post

It seemed unlikely that anybody would publish it and he was still a father, husband, professor, friend and now had deplorable cultists to deal with. He wasn't idle.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


sador
Half-elven

Jan 9 2008, 9:10pm

Post #71 of 71 (727 views)
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I've been really bad, you know [In reply to] Can't Post

You've left me a question which I haven't answered. I'm so sorry. mea cuulpa, actually.
What makes things worse, is that it's been some of your first posts here! I'm flatterred they were as a reply to me. A belated welcome.
Not to re-open this discussion now - I think the only character who might be a Christ-figure IS Frodo, but that's another discussion we should wait for abetter time to have.
As for your question - well, if you see the heated discussion which followed my innocent question, I think it is sufficiently answered.

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