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Are Azog and Bolg the most powerful orcs in tolkien lore?

boldog
Rohan

Aug 21 2013, 11:07am

Post #1 of 12 (1049 views)
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Are Azog and Bolg the most powerful orcs in tolkien lore? Can't Post

I don't know if this belongs on this board, but are these two orcs the most powerful, both movie and lore wise?
For starters, they are the definite mentioned orc kings who ruled powerful kindoms of orcs. (gundabad and moria)
Also they can control orcs, which must truly be a great gift, as there is usually tension between them. But what do you all think?
the only other exception I can think of is Boldog, though he doesn't do really very much at all!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 21 2013, 4:40pm

Post #2 of 12 (559 views)
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The Great Goblin [In reply to] Can't Post

He would have the rule, maybe only tacitly, of all this under the MM, he would have power, of a different sort. Perhaps more political, than Generalship and martial prowess.

Idea for a new book?

The Great Goblin: an autobiography, An inside look into Goblin Foreign policy in the Third Age.


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Aug 21 2013, 10:57pm

Post #3 of 12 (458 views)
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They are of the few Orc-lords that get a mention by name! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lio
Lorien


Aug 21 2013, 11:15pm

Post #4 of 12 (446 views)
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Infamy [In reply to] Can't Post

It's really hard to say in terms of power, especially when compared with other Orcs, as we don't really get to learn that much about them in the end. What's interesting about Azog and Bolg is that they ruled their own realms independently, unlike the Orcs we meet in LotR who served Sauron or Saruman. Also, Bolg seems to have had some degree of infamy, based on Gandalf's lines about him in TH ("Bolg of the North" and so on). I really do wish we could have learned more about their history. Tongue

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 22 2013, 4:08am

Post #5 of 12 (417 views)
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Don't forget Ugluk. Perhaps of the orc who are named and encountered, but certainly they would not [In reply to] Can't Post

be mightier than those orcs who were not orcs but demonic prototypes. The Boldog type, less than Sauron or Balrogs, but incarnate Maia still, and far mightier than any latter form of orc, be they warped Elf or other.

In Reply To
I don't know if this belongs on this board, but are these two orcs the most powerful, both movie and lore wise?
For starters, they are the definite mentioned orc kings who ruled powerful kindoms of orcs. (gundabad and moria)
Also they can control orcs, which must truly be a great gift, as there is usually tension between them. But what do you all think?
the only other exception I can think of is Boldog, though he doesn't do really very much at all!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


patrickk
Rohan

Aug 22 2013, 8:15am

Post #6 of 12 (383 views)
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Idea for book: just add With Forward by Henry Kissinger [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 22 2013, 10:19pm

Post #7 of 12 (350 views)
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Don't forget about the Great Goblin... [In reply to] Can't Post

...whose death was the main reason for the goblin attack that led to the Battle of 5 Armies.

As for Azog, there is some evidence that his "rule" was not entirely independent. According to Appendix B, Sauron began sending his servants to Moria around 300 years before Azog killed Thror. It's probably safe to assume that Azog and his tribe were those servants of Sauron, or at least the descendants of those servants. It's never made explicit whether or not the Moria orcs kept contact with Mordor.

There's also the matter of the Balrog's presence. A Balrog would most certainly not suffer a mere orc to claim lordship over HIS realm, unless of course the orcs had minimal-to-no contact with the Balrog, or the Balrog simply didn't care enough and left the orcs to their own devices.


Lio
Lorien


Aug 23 2013, 10:57pm

Post #8 of 12 (337 views)
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Ah, forgot to mention the GG! [In reply to] Can't Post

If his death was such a big deal that goblins from the entire Misty Mountains wanted to avenge it, he must have been important. Wink

Right, it's possible that Azog might have been connected to Sauron originally. And I remember reading in a previous thread somewhere that the Moria Orcs sent mithril to Sauron as tribute, so they kept in contact at least. I still do think the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in general were mostly independent, and that Sauron didn't rule over them in a "hands on" way. As well, I got the feeling that Azog commanded all the Orcs of the mountains and didn't answer to anyone else.

As for the Balrog, I like to think that he just didn't care that much and was dormant most of the time. I never got the impression that he actively ruled the Orcs there, though he certainly could have if he wanted to. (Also, I don't think the Moria Orcs could serve both Sauron and the Balrog?)

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Aug 24 2013, 10:12am

Post #9 of 12 (314 views)
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Orcobal [In reply to] Can't Post

chiefest orc champion at the fall of Gondolin, possibly greater, right up until Tuor cleft him to his teeth.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 24 2013, 5:19pm

Post #10 of 12 (310 views)
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The Balrog [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrog had been discovered about 500-600 years before the arrival of Sauron's minions, so I'd assume he was definitely aware of the presence of the orcs. The Balrog was apparently also waiting inside the east-gate while the dwarves slaughtered Azog and his orcs, close enough for Dain to catch a glimpse of him and convince Thrain not to enter. So I think the Balrog must have had some kind of rapport or understanding with the orcs for him to show up at the battle. Whether he had any control over them, or even cared to, is up for debate I guess.

Anyway, this is all just my interpretation of the text. I also think possibly that my intense dislike of movie Azog might be spilling over into my thoughts on book Azog, which might be why I don't want to give him any credit. Tongue


Lio
Lorien


Aug 24 2013, 7:29pm

Post #11 of 12 (333 views)
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I've always wondered… [In reply to] Can't Post

…about the Balrog's apparent lack of activity. As far as I can remember, except for when Dain sees him, we don't hear anything from him between the time he kicks the Dwarves out of Moria and when the Fellowship ventures there. He didn't even seem to be an issue during Balin's expedition, which leads me to think he's dormant most of the time or just not around for some reason. I imagine he must have been aware of the Orcs though, and tolerated their presence.

Regarding the battle, I do wonder about the extent of his role there. He didn't seem interested in participating, so maybe he just showed up at the last minute to watch and maybe not even the Orcs were aware of him at first? After all, it was their war not his. Tongue

I don't know, for some reason I can't shake the feeling that the Balrog just didn't care all that much. Durin's Bane: Laziest Balrog ever!!

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 27 2013, 2:33am

Post #12 of 12 (348 views)
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True... [In reply to] Can't Post

Durin's Bane wasn't mentioned at all in the Book of Mazarbul, apparently it was mostly orcs who had slain Balin and his colony. It would have been much scarier had Tolkien written in the Balrog as the destroyer of the failed colony, instead of orcs.

As for the Battle of Azanulbizar, the Balrog probably could have wiped out the remainder of the dwarven army, who were left reeling after the war with the orcs. But instead he chose to avoid the battle, and just sat inside and looked scary. Yeah, you're right - Durin's Bane seems to have been very lackadaisical at times.

 
 

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