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SCOD - On scale-doubling...

One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Aug 13 2013, 3:55pm

Post #1 of 11 (433 views)
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SCOD - On scale-doubling... Can't Post

For today's cap I've picked one of particular interest.



Now I'm having trouble guessing who it is that's posing for Gimli here, to be honest. Whether it's John or Brett. It really does sort of look like John, but give the more narrow features I'll lean towards Brett.

1.) How effective is scale-doubling in this shot? In the entire trilogy?

2.) Do you ever have trouble discerning where one actor ends and the other begins?

3.) Any other thoughts/comments?


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"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 13 2013, 8:39pm

Post #2 of 11 (224 views)
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"If LOTR be the food of love, press 'Replay'!" [In reply to] Can't Post

1.) How effective is scale-doubling in this shot?

Quite good.


In the entire trilogy?

Also quite good, except in some of the long shots of the Fellowship traveling. The gaits of the scale-doubles seem vastly different from the main actors. I know they practiced synchronizing their gaits with each other, but when the scale-doubles walk fast to keep up there seems to be a noticeable difference.


2.) Do you ever have trouble discerning where one actor ends and the other begins?

Absolutely! Some scenes I'd swear were real are cgi, others I'd swear were cgi are real. Same with the actors and their doubles. Show what happens when you overthink.


3.) Any other thoughts/comments?

The problem is, films are generally intended to be seen only once, When you start watching them multiple times you start noticing the mistakes. For example, when Eomer mounts up after interrogating The Three Hunters film theory says the audience looks at his eyes in the upper left hand corner. But when you've watched the same scene umpteen dozen times your eyes are wandering around where they're not intended to. So you notice the sword slipping out of his scabbard in the far opposite corner of the screen,

Same with the scale doubles. If it's your first time and you're trying to take everything in and follow the story, you're probably not going to be noticing differences in scale. That's the problem with romance. You're all intoxicated with someone at first. Then after a while you start noticing all the little things wrong with them. And if you find yourself accepting all the little things, that's when romance turns to love.

Otherwise, as The Bard said:

If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall:
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound,
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more:
'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.

-Twelfth Night

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Loresilme
Valinor


Aug 13 2013, 9:33pm

Post #3 of 11 (240 views)
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Scale doubles [In reply to] Can't Post

1.) How effective is scale-doubling in this shot? In the entire trilogy?
I thought it was fantastic. From FoTR and the minute Gandalf first enters Bilbo's home and starts hitting his head on the ceiling beams, to ROTK and the moment they're all standing at the Grey Havens, it was really difficult for me to remember that the actors playing the Hobbits really weren't that small in real life :-).

2.) Do you ever have trouble discerning where one actor ends and the other begins?
Sometimes in the long shots, there was a difference in how they carried themselves, which was really only apparent after watching the films many times. However overall, in the vast majority of screen time there were so many scenes where it worked so, so well. I
f I had to choose one really beautiful example in particular, it's the scene towards the end of FOTR where Aragorn resists the Ring and says " I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor", and he gracefully kneels down and is eye level with Frodo as closes his hands over the Ring and gives it back. It was wonderfully acted and the scale doubling was absolutely seamless. In fact I don't even know whether that was Elijah or his scale double :-).

3.) Any other thoughts/comments?
I love this shot for the detail of the room - the carving on the columns, and those hanging tapestries. Amazing!




(This post was edited by Loresilme on Aug 13 2013, 9:34pm)


Nira
Lorien


Aug 14 2013, 3:12am

Post #4 of 11 (185 views)
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I <3 doubles! [In reply to] Can't Post

 I think it's John. A shot that straight on & still just begs to be done like the shot of the entire fellowship in FOTR.
1. Very well done. The best is either Frodo's jump into Gandalf's cart at the beginning of FOTR or during a few of the Moria scenes.
2. I did the first hundred times I watched, but now I think I can tell them all.
3. I don't like when the actors are on their knees (or on a box) because their heads don't look the right scale. I want floors like that.
I know it's not PC and sorry, but I have to say that I think scale doubles are so cute the way they match outfits and everything. I love it.

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise

(This post was edited by Nira on Aug 14 2013, 3:22am)


Alcarcalime
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 11:32am

Post #5 of 11 (601 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that is Brett because he is thinner than John.

1.) How effective is scale-doubling in this shot? In the entire trilogy? Generally, pretty good both in this shot and the whole thing.

2.) Do you ever have trouble discerning where one actor ends and the other begins? I have never had trouble picking out the doubles. They jump out to me. I have very bad eyesight and have always noticed how people move and the movements of the scale doubles are so different from the actors that it is immediately apparent to me.




sevilodorf
Gondor


Aug 15 2013, 12:13am

Post #6 of 11 (156 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Some shots of scale doubles were/are very distracting..... Frodo and Sam trailing after Gandalf in the Woody End

Pippin running out past the White Tree when Faramir is carried in. Merry and Pippin in Theoden's Hall....

mostly I don't notice.... unless it's pointed out and then I never don't notice it......

Like was said, most movies get seen once.... I've seen these more than 20 times over the years, plus focused on individual screen shots....

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Werde Spinner
Rohan


Aug 15 2013, 10:37pm

Post #7 of 11 (140 views)
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Venturing into a SCOD for the first time... [In reply to] Can't Post

(1) How effective is scale-doubling in this shot? In the entire trilogy?

I always thought it was very well done - masterfully done, even.

(2) Do you ever have trouble discerning where one actor begins and another ends?

Not in LOTR, no. I might be rather uncritical of or entirely oblivious to minor glitches that other people catch on to, though. ...On second thoughts, yes, it's just me being oblivious.

(3) Any other thoughts/comments?

My problem with this shot has nothing to do with Gimli. My problem is Legolas. For some reason, he looks like he's been photoshopped in. Something about the lightning seems off. Dunno why, but it does.

Wink Oh, and I've seen this picture with the captions:

GANDALF: "You will apologize to Theoden or you will be grounded."

ARAGORN: "Will not."

LEGOLAS: "Yeah, right."

GIMLI: "Theoden started it."

So now that's all I can think of whenever I see this picture!! Laugh

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Loresilme
Valinor


Aug 16 2013, 1:28pm

Post #8 of 11 (110 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Now it's got me thinking that too Cool!


In Reply To
Wink Oh, and I've seen this picture with the captions:

GANDALF: "You will apologize to Theoden or you will be grounded."
ARAGORN: "Will not."
LEGOLAS: "Yeah, right."
GIMLI: "Theoden started it."
So now that's all I can think of whenever I see this picture!! Laugh



Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 16 2013, 1:31pm

Post #9 of 11 (112 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Stay a while!

******************************************
Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Aug 16 2013, 5:09pm

Post #10 of 11 (144 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

For me the real problem with the scale doubles is not that they can be discerned, but that we (specially in HD) can see their real faces very clearly from time to time through the entire trilogy.

I only hope PJ someday may fix this for a future edition, but I'm not so hopeful because filmmakers tend to be too protective of these things.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Aug 16 2013, 5:10pm)


Runk Snusgrop
Rivendell


Aug 28 2013, 2:14pm

Post #11 of 11 (59 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember John lost a significant amount of weight between 1999 (when shooting started) and 2003 (when the last pick-ups were shot). This could be a pick-up shot, with a thinner John Rhys-Davies.


 
 

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