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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Lindir (the name, at least) is canon!

Arthael
Lorien


Jul 21 2013, 12:42am

Post #1 of 23 (1071 views)
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Lindir (the name, at least) is canon! Can't Post

I don't remember seeing anything posted about this, and I do remember a lot of complaining about Brett being cast as a "made up" character instead of a canon character (i.e. Glorfindel) but I read this today and was very surprised. Thought I would share!

Quote
The chanting ceased. Frodo opened his eyes and saw that Bilbo was seated on his stool in the circle of listeners, who were smiling and applauding.
'Now we had better have it again,' said an Elf.
Bilbo got up and bowed. 'I am flattered, Lindir,' he said. 'But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.'
-"Many Meetings" p. 265

Just thought that was interesting that they picked the name of a real Tolkien character for a minor character in the films (like Beregond in the ROTK film).

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 3:57am

Post #2 of 23 (463 views)
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Nice Catch!...sooo..What is Lindir's Status at Rivendell? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems Brett is like Holding down the Fort
while Elrond is out driving off the Orcs
from the Company.

AND he is like the SENIOR Greeter to bring them into their Fortress?

So does that mean Lindir is Second in Command?
Like Vice-president of Rivendell?

Amazing that we only got a Glimpse of any OTHER Elves,
& Rivendell seems to have population of What? 200 Maybe?
Interesting, very interesting.

Anyone have a guess about how many Elves live there?
Bomby


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 4:42am

Post #3 of 23 (461 views)
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I never said he was made up, though I complained alot. He is an Elf in Rivendell, of far lesser [In reply to] Can't Post

stature and import than Glorfindel, whose only appearance and lines in the entire tale are on one page where he judges a poetry comparison between Aragorn and Bilbo.

I always knew the name was cannon and the character. . . it is just. .. what cheek, showcasing such a relative lightweight while giving Glorfindel, who has exponentially more pages, more refferences, more power and more relevance. What does Lindir even look like>? Who knows, outside of Bretts interpretation of him.

Glorfindel? ". . .tall and straight. His hair was of shining gold, his face Fair and Young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen and his voice like music. On his brow sat wisdom and in his hand was power."

In Reply To
I don't remember seeing anything posted about this, and I do remember a lot of complaining about Brett being cast as a "made up" character instead of a canon character (i.e. Glorfindel) but I read this today and was very surprised. Thought I would share!

Quote
The chanting ceased. Frodo opened his eyes and saw that Bilbo was seated on his stool in the circle of listeners, who were smiling and applauding.
'Now we had better have it again,' said an Elf.
Bilbo got up and bowed. 'I am flattered, Lindir,' he said. 'But it would be too tiring to repeat it all.'
-"Many Meetings" p. 265

Just thought that was interesting that they picked the name of a real Tolkien character for a minor character in the films (like Beregond in the ROTK film).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 21 2013, 4:45am

Post #4 of 23 (467 views)
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Not Beregond, unfortunately. [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a Beregond-like character, but his name was Irolas (for some strange reason). Picture








Arthael
Lorien


Jul 21 2013, 5:41am

Post #5 of 23 (406 views)
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Ah, my mistake [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I read somewhere that his character's name (which I don't think is ever said aloud in the film) is Beregond. Guess not!!

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Arthael
Lorien


Jul 21 2013, 5:44am

Post #6 of 23 (411 views)
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I would have much preferred a fleshed out Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

to Lindir, since Glorfindel is actually a featured and interesting character. Maybe they thought it would be too hard to cram another character into the script....which is ironic, considering their treatment of the Hobbit trilogy as a whole, which appears to be "PUT IT ALL IN!" (And make it up when it's not there)

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 6:05am

Post #7 of 23 (401 views)
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Exactly. Why Lindir over Glorfindel? There is no reason Glorfindel could not get a small cameo of the same sort. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
to Lindir, since Glorfindel is actually a featured and interesting character. Maybe they thought it would be too hard to cram another character into the script....which is ironic, considering their treatment of the Hobbit trilogy as a whole, which appears to be "PUT IT ALL IN!" (And make it up when it's not there)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 8:49am

Post #8 of 23 (363 views)
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I was thrilled to see him. [In reply to] Can't Post

That "Figwit" silliness got me through a lot of really tough stuff in 2004, including my mother's last long slow illness that lead to her death in 2009, and myself having a tumor that turned out to be benign but was a scare, and the surgery to remove it.

I loved seeing him in The Hobbit. And the fact that they named him Lindir (a name I recognized immediately) was a bonus.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



jtarkey
Rohan


Jul 21 2013, 12:08pm

Post #9 of 23 (322 views)
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Nice. [In reply to] Can't Post

His inclusion is most definitely absurd, and attention should have been given to Glorfindel.

However, I LOVE Flight of the Chonchords. Brett is a very talented dude. His work in "The Muppets" alone is enough to earn me his respect.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Noria
Rohan

Jul 21 2013, 12:12pm

Post #10 of 23 (341 views)
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Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

If Lindir's lines had been given to a character named Glorfindel, there would have been mega complaints that the glorious Glorfindel had been made into a butler. IMO, there was no place in these movies for Glorfindel and PJ made the right choice.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 21 2013, 7:57pm

Post #11 of 23 (249 views)
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Hmm, I always thought [In reply to] Can't Post

that was Imrahil. He seems more dressed up than a regular Gondorian soldier, so I never imagined him as Beregond (or Beregond-like).

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




cats16
Valinor

Jul 21 2013, 8:05pm

Post #12 of 23 (259 views)
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I always thought Imrahil, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

For what it's worth, the actor's imdb page, in the "trivia" section, says "n The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003), he was originally cast as "Beregond", a character from the book. In post-production, the character was changed to "Irolas", who does not appear in the book, but is described as being Beregond's brother.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0400655/

I had never heard of this before. I'm also not really sure who has editing rights to the trivia section of a person's imdb page. I've come to never trust imdb unless it's on the film page itself (after it's released).

Can anyone else speak to having heard this before?

Edit: Just found this same blurb on the ROTK page, but I'm still not sure if it's only the studio that has editing abilities for trivia sections.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Jul 21 2013, 8:12pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 21 2013, 8:25pm

Post #13 of 23 (248 views)
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Imrahil [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I'm not really sure that I believe that trivia section from imdb. It seems really odd. Why would he be changed from Beregond to a made up Irolas?

Since he's not actually called anything in the film itself, I'm just going to continue to believe he's Imrahil. That's what seems to best fit to me. Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




cats16
Valinor

Jul 21 2013, 8:34pm

Post #14 of 23 (230 views)
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I'm with you there. :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 21 2013, 9:22pm

Post #15 of 23 (222 views)
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For what it's worth.... [In reply to] Can't Post

He is credited as "Irolas" in the ROTK credits- after all the lovely Alan Lee drawings of the main cast, the full cast list rolls up as usual and the credit is there. Nice thought for him to be Imrahil though.


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jul 21 2013, 10:04pm

Post #16 of 23 (239 views)
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Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post

In all honesty, I would have absolutely loved to see Glorfindel- the elf who fought a balrog, died, then was one of select few (if not the only one-I cannot remember for certain at the moment) to go to the Halls of Mandos, then come back to Middle-earth after Smile

However, from a cinematic standpoint, I can see why he would not have been included, sad though it may be.

Gandalf's death and "resurrection" was a huge turning point in the War of the Ring, and in the LOTR trilogy. His transformation from grey and dead to white and alive was HUGE, and things finally began to look like they could possibly win this impossible battle for the survival of the entire world.

Now, in the book it is absolutely fine-there is plenty of chapters between the mentions of Glorfindel's origins and Gandalf's coming back to Mddle-earth as the white wizard.

However, cinematically, it could easily have shown those of the audience who aren't well versed in Tolkien's works (or who don't know anything at all about him!) that resurrection of the "dead" was commonplace in Middle-earth if two people were to come back to life after fighting the same sort of enemy. Therefore, if it is assumed that it "happens all the time", it would have SEVERELY lessened the impact of Gandalf's return and the importance behind it.

Sometimes, despite fans lamenting it, in order to get the audience to feel and understand the weight of such an event, things have to be tweaked in order for it to work.

In this case, Glorfindel's participation in the events of LOTR had to be omitted in order to make Gandalf's return have the importance it should have felt by the audience.

Additionally, Arwen was already in the films, and it eliminated the need to cast yet another substantial role within an already lengthy and complex trilogy, plus it allowed for some characterization of her and Aragorn's relationship. It also showed that he was extremely comfortable and familiar with the elves of Rivendell as to be so informal with one- providing the viewer with the subtle information that he must have spent a great deal of time there without having to explain it in such an urgent scene. The audience gets confirmation of this when Aragorn tells Eowyn that he was raised in Rivendell for a time, thus providing this information via dialogue to quell any doubts that still continued and provide continuity linking FOTR to TT.

So, even if as a fan I would have loved to see Glorfindel in his canon role, I can understand why it was changed for the movie.

But I was reconciled by it in AUJ, because my husband, who also likes Glorfindel, pointed out that right as the elves began circling the dwarves as they arrived in Rivendell, there was a golden haired elf with a circlet atop his head that the camera focuses on for a second or two. Given that most of the elves had helms on, and Elrond, being an elvish lord, also bore no helm but rather a circlet, it could logically be inferred that this golden haired elf is in fact Glorfindel:

http://screencapped.net/movie/lotr/displayimage.php?album=154&pid=497271#top_display_media

(sorry, for some reason it had trouble putting the link in, and if the web address doesn't work, it is a screencap on page 109 for AUJ)

Surely elves would not lose their "lordship" status even if their kingdom is under the sea and they have returned to Middle-earth from the halls of Mandos Smile

Lord Elrond also seems to be the type to acknowledge lordship status regardless, like he did with Thorin, even though Thorin did not have possession of the Kingdom from whence his lordship status came either Wink

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm

(This post was edited by Cirashala on Jul 21 2013, 10:11pm)


cats16
Valinor

Jul 21 2013, 10:49pm

Post #17 of 23 (203 views)
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Ah, thank you for sorting this out. [In reply to] Can't Post

Like Ardamíre, I might keep thinking he's Imrahil in my head. I'll begrudgingly try to start saying "Irolas" while watching, though.

On a similar (I think!) note, does anyone else like to think of the child (probably around 9 or 10) who is walking the crowded streets of Minas Tirith when the defenders of Osgitliath return as being Bergil? He's sort of at the head of the crowd, walking to greet the riders. He's only there for that quick, single shot (wearing all blue clothes, I think?) I'll look for a screenshot to make this easier for people who aren't sure of what I'm thinking.

Edit: Ok, here's a screenshot of what I'm picturing in my head. This is really stretching it, so I hope someone has the same thought! I think it's mostly because of during the first chapter of Rotk when Pippin and Bergil go out and see the riders from the South coming to aid the city. Different people under different circumstances, but I still like to think Pippin is walking next to this young boy, in spirit at least!Smile

http://screencapped.net/movie/lotr/displayimage.php?album=6&pid=30752#top_display_media


(This post was edited by cats16 on Jul 21 2013, 10:56pm)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jul 21 2013, 11:57pm

Post #18 of 23 (202 views)
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Of course he is! [In reply to] Can't Post

And to my understanding, he was a minstrel. I was glad that PJ gave him a role in The Hobbit, since they wrote out Lindir in The Fellowship of the Ring adaptation. Now if only they wrote out the non-canon characters, and put in Glorfindel and Cirdan. Wink As you can tell, those are two of my favorite characters, aside from members of the Fellowship.


cats16
Valinor

Jul 22 2013, 12:20am

Post #19 of 23 (202 views)
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Ziggy, meet malickfan, malickfan, meet Ziggy ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

As if you both didn't know each other already...Cool


Elthir
Gondor

Jul 22 2013, 5:54pm

Post #20 of 23 (129 views)
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Golden-hair [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Now, in the book it is absolutely fine-there is plenty of chapters between the mentions of Glorfindel's origins and Gandalf's coming back to Mddle-earth as the white wizard.




Hmm, well enough of your post seems to be about the films avoiding Glorfindel, due to his being reincarnated and considering Gandalf's scenario in the same film...

... but in the books that were being used for the film there is nothing about Glorfindel of Rivendell fighting a Balrog, dying, and returning to Middle-earth in a new [but exact] body.


And Arwen could still have been in the films along with Glorfindel of course, as A) there was no real need to make Glorfindel a substantial character in the films, outside of providing the Elven-horse for Frodo as an emissary of Rivendell -- as you say about the first Hobbit film, having an Elf simply appear that might be Glorfindel reconciled you to his lack in the films based on The Lord of the Rings -- and B) on the other hand, Peter Jackson chose to beef up, in some measure at least, the role of Haldir of Lothlorien, for example.

The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen could still have been portrayed of course, arguably even earlier in the film than it does occur, or roughly about the same time, in a flashback scene -- for example Aragorn remembering their first meeting as he and the Hobbits marched from Bree to Rivendell.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 22 2013, 5:58pm)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Jul 22 2013, 8:06pm

Post #21 of 23 (107 views)
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Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have *loved* to see Glorfindel in the LOTR movies, but I could understand very well why they wouldn't bother, even if I couldn't articulate my reasonings as well as you. Smile However, I suppose they wouldn't have had to explain that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and came back to life (do they even have the rights to that information? Crazy). They could have just had a character referenced as Glorfindel once, and that would have been it.

Thank you for linking to that lovely screencap. I also firmly believe that that is Glorfindel, even if it is never confirmed officially. I seem to recall being in the theater, noticing the blond Elf, and going, "Ooh, look, it's Glorfindel!" My sister poked me, I think...

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 22 2013, 9:42pm

Post #22 of 23 (103 views)
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Heck even Bakshi wrote Glorfindel out of his version of LotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

In Bakshi's animated The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel was replaced by Legolas, who I am guessing joined the search for Frodo and his companions out of friendship with Aragorn (whom he bacame acquainted with through the Search for Gollum?).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Gondor

Jul 22 2013, 10:33pm

Post #23 of 23 (109 views)
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the rights to Glorfindel [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
However, I suppose they wouldn't have had to explain that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and came back to life (do they even have the rights to that information? Crazy). They could have just had a character referenced as Glorfindel once, and that would have been it.




Right, even if this information was in The Lord of the Rings, the filmmakers would not have needed to mention it.

But you're correct, that information is rather from The Silmarillion, which the filmmakers had no right to use, and Tolkien's decision that there was only one Glorfindel hails from late essays published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which the filmmakers again would have had no right to use.

The choice to employ Legolas [now mentioned in the thread] was better than employing Arwen here, in my opinion; but the point was, Glorfindel's death and reincarnation should not have been an obstacle with respect to showing Glorfindel in the film, in consideration of Gandalf's death.

 
 

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