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Cirdan the Shipwright a member of the White Council

Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jul 20 2013, 1:02am

Post #1 of 17 (333 views)
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Cirdan the Shipwright a member of the White Council Can't Post

I just found this piece here

Quote
By 2060, it was feared that Sauron had returned and was inhabiting the stronghold of Dol Guldur in Mirkwood. The White Council was formed to counter this threat in 2463. Cirdan was a member, as were Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Saruman. In 2941, the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur, but he fled in secret to Mordor.

from the website http://thainsbook.net/cirdan.html
So if Cirdan was a member, did he help out at Dol Guldor? And if so, I wish he was in the film. He is an awesome and mysterious character.


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 20 2013, 7:22am

Post #2 of 17 (186 views)
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Yes, he is rather awesome, as my very rambling essay will tell you [In reply to] Can't Post

(Not sure if you are aware of this but I'm TORn's resident Cirdan Nut):

http://paulashwellreviews.wordpress.com/...e-tolkien-fans-only/

(Be warned, I have a habit of periodically making it even longer)

Whether he was at Dol Goldur is open to debate-as one of the last remaining wise it would make sense he would join with the other ringbearers in the assuault, on the other hand he did state his heart was with the sea (note he sends Galdor as his envoy to the Council of Elrond, lazy git).

Yeah, he (and the talking purse...) should have had cameos in The Hobbit...

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Lothwen
Rivendell


Jul 20 2013, 3:57pm

Post #3 of 17 (170 views)
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Your Cirdan essay [In reply to] Can't Post

Is very cool Malickfan; it's kept me busy for the entire day; I really enjoyed it. Impressively long. Wow.

I never thought Cirdan was that old, 11000...or more. Shocked To tell the truth I hadn't thought much about Cirdan at all, other than to vaguely wonder why he wasn't at the Counsel of Elrond. Blush

Just a random question...you used "Elve" as a singular form of "Elves"; any specific reasons why?


Followed by that awkwarder moment when you realize that you think this is awesome...


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 6:14pm

Post #4 of 17 (151 views)
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Heck, Tollken isn't even clear on whether Elrond was at Dol Guldur... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the final chapters of The Hobbit Gandalf tells Elrond about the attack on the Necromancer as though it was news that might not have reached him yet. This may have been for Bilbo's benefit as the Wizard might not have wanted to reveal Lord Elrond's status as a member of the White Council to the Hobbit. Or perhaps Elrond remained in Rivendale in case the attack was not successful.

Thoughts?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 20 2013, 6:31pm

Post #5 of 17 (145 views)
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Thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah it is very long (as you probably saw I haven't updated the blog in over six months...I'm planning on tidiying the essay up a bit and starting a new blog-one without my name in the title!), and yes he sure is old!

Regarding the spelling of Elve...It was just easier to copy and paste the spelling each time from 'Elves' I don't think its right, so I'll probably tidy it up at some point.

I was thinking of writing a sequel essay on Dain Ironfoot (my other fave 'minor' tolkien character (and I've been urged, along with DanielLB to start one on the talking purse...although 20,000 words on him might be a struggle...) but I honestly doubt I could ever write that much again..

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


cats16
Valinor

Jul 20 2013, 6:42pm

Post #6 of 17 (135 views)
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My thought is... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Elrond stayed behind as an assurance that not all of the bearers of the Three would have perished, in effect handing them over to Sauron, had the assault gone badly. Or it's just that Elrond wasn't considered to be part of the Council at the time of writing TH. My hunch lies on the first option I listed. Or am I forgetting some detail that would contradict this?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 6:49pm

Post #7 of 17 (134 views)
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Technically... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe Elrond stayed behind as an assurance that not all of the bearers of the Three would have perished, in effect handing them over to Sauron, had the assault gone badly. Or it's just that Elrond wasn't considered to be part of the Council at the time of writing TH. My hunch lies on the first option I listed. Or am I forgetting some detail that would contradict this?



In reality, I'd have to go with your latter point. Tolkien hadn't yet developed the White Council in detail. However, that explanation doesn't work withing Tolkien's larger chronology of Middle-earth, where Elrond has been part of the Councils of the Wise from the beginning--long before Gandalf and the other Istari were sent to Middle-earth.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


cats16
Valinor

Jul 20 2013, 7:00pm

Post #8 of 17 (141 views)
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Would Elrond... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there evidence, or is it implied, that Elrond took an isolationist view, not wanting to be physically involved with any more of the fight against Sauron? I know his wife was tortured and killed by orcs, so would that be his reason for withdrawing himself (out of grief)? He certainly seems to hold up in Rivendell, without much desire to aid others in the War of the Ring via manpower. He gives counsel, but won't take part himself. His sons seem the exact opposite, acting out of revenge for their mother. It's only after Sauron is defeated (and his wife's death now has some closure after evil is removed from the West) that he rides to Gondor for the coronation.

Am I correct with these thoughts? I don't want to overlook a fact that would rule out this theory.


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 20 2013, 7:11pm

Post #9 of 17 (133 views)
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Even if he wanted to act...could he? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Rivendell the population was growing ever lower, in all the years of the fighting in Arnor, there are very few references to Elves taking part, and even if he were to send an army over or arounf the misty mountains, they would make a nice juicy target (and once more there is no reference to Elves going via the gap of Rohan or near Isenguard).

Another Random thought...anyone Else fins it odd how Legolas seems rather confused/ ignorant about Lorien, when Galadriel presumebaly sent an army in to Overthrow the Necromancer in Mirkwood? I haven't read the books in ages so maybe its just me...

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 7:16pm

Post #10 of 17 (126 views)
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Well, first, Elrond's spouse survived the Orc attack... [In reply to] Can't Post

Celebrian never fully recovered from her experience and took ship into the West, but she didn't die.

I think that an additional factor that might have kept Elrond in Rivendell was the lateness of the year. It is entirely possible that he didn't want to risk being forced to winter east of the Misty Mountains, leaving Imladris without its lord for an entire season and then some. There may also have been a conscious decision to keep at least one of the Elven Rings away from Dol Guldur and out of Sauron's reach.

My hypothesis is that Elrond, himself, remained in Rivendell. However, he probably sent several members of his household (his sons Elladan and Erohir, Glorfindel, maybe others) and a force of Dunedain Rangers to support the assault against the Necromancer.

Cirdan may have been part of the attack. However, considering his vast age, he may have sent one or more representatives instead (Galdor, who spoke for him at the Council of Elrond?).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 20 2013, 7:19pm)


cats16
Valinor

Jul 20 2013, 7:24pm

Post #11 of 17 (124 views)
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You make a good point there [In reply to] Can't Post

So I guess perhaps he didn't really have many options, based on circumstances. Too bad there isn't more written on Elrond's thoughts on any of this. I don't remember reading anything, even during the Council, that gives much insight.

To your question, it does seem a little strange. I think, to me, his lack of knowledge comes from the Elves of Mirkwood not wanting any involvement with the southern part of the forest. I just read Fellowship not that long ago, so I'm trying to go through it in my head right now.


cats16
Valinor

Jul 20 2013, 7:38pm

Post #12 of 17 (124 views)
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Oops, thanks for correcting that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew I couldn't have had everything in order there.Wink

That's an interesting point you make about the time of year. I wonder how those of this household made it to DG? Surely Caradhras would be too dangerous to trek in that season, even for such skilled and powerful elves/men (maybe it was, I'm only going off of how difficult the Fellowship found the way, even with Gandalf). At that point, I would think that the Gap of Rohan would still be considered "safe" to them. Saruman is up to no good in his mind, but there is no behavioral indication of his purposes. Perhaps then they organized their forces in Lorien upon everyone's arrival.

I also wonder about Radagast's involvement. Surely, he gave them some support, whether that be in the form of animals as 'fighters' or helped himself. I just can't imagine him not having some involvement, based on his proximity to DG in Mirkwood.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Jul 20 2013, 7:43pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 7:51pm

Post #13 of 17 (122 views)
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Tolkien placed the attack on or around the time of the company's escape from the Wood-elves... [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that Thorin and Company arrived in Lake-town on September 22, 2941 (T.A.). So it wouldn't have been all that late in the year, after all. However, we also know that the Orcs in the Misty Mountains were stirred up by Gandalf's slaying of the Great Goblin. That might have prevented Elrond from using the passes through the mountains. The Gap of Rohan might still have been the only viable route by then.

I do agree that Lothlorien seems to be the logical point for the White Council's forces to muster. Or perhaps the Council met and debated at Lorien and mustered for the attack at Rhosgobel?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


cats16
Valinor

Jul 20 2013, 7:59pm

Post #14 of 17 (121 views)
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I wonder if... [In reply to] Can't Post

There is any possible explanation as to why the Wood Elves don't participate in the assault (unless perhaps they did but it is never stated). I can't imagine that the Company's escape from the dungeons caused that much trouble, so as to warrant them not being able to send troops. Why wouldn't you (being Thranduil) send aid to rid evil from the forest where you dwell? It seems hard for me to think he would refuse Galadriel, of all people. Or Gandalf. Or even Radagast, who presumably may have had some friendly relationship with the Wood Elves.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jul 21 2013, 12:12am

Post #15 of 17 (108 views)
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Very good essay [In reply to] Can't Post

And agreed. Cirdan (and the talking purse) should have made cameos in the movle. It's already too late for the talking purse, but I wish that Cirdan would be included in the next film, since it's possible he was at the Battle of Dol Guldor. I mean, if they can put in Tauriel and Alfrid, two characters not in the Tolkien canon, why can't they include the ever-awesome Cirdan? He's way more awesome than those non-canon atrocities. Unsure


Lothwen
Rivendell


Jul 21 2013, 8:06am

Post #16 of 17 (97 views)
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An essay on Dain Ironfoot [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be fascinating; if you do write it, I would love to read it. Smile

Elve sounded very much like "proper Tolkien" (like elfish-Elvish, dwarfs-Dwarves), so I thought that maybe I had been committing a Tolkien-like sin by using Elf... Laugh I'm glad to see I'm not.

(Btw, a essay on the talking purse would be...awesome, but not as awesome as Cirdan. Wink )


Followed by that awkwarder moment when you realize that you think this is awesome...


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 22 2013, 2:35am

Post #17 of 17 (103 views)
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Since he was one of the original Ring-bearers, that makes sense :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


4th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - May 1, 2013



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I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



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