Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Dwarves, Doriath and Doomed Women
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 4:53pm

Post #51 of 75 (116 views)
Shortcut
As always, thanks for the kind words! Glad to see you! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Everybody had such awesome replies - each one ! Thanks for sharing !!Smile


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 23 2013, 4:54pm

Post #52 of 75 (118 views)
Shortcut
A humorous Observation [In reply to] Can't Post

I also find it pretty funny that the P-D's, or Dwarves in general, have a gene that could make them EVEN shorter.

Why would Aule even put that into their genetics ?

Perhaps it was a mutation?

Well, It gave me a chuckle anyway.Laugh


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 5:10pm

Post #53 of 75 (122 views)
Shortcut
We have Orcrist the Goblin-biter...and Mim the knee-biter. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I also find it pretty funny that the P-D's, or Dwarves in general, have a gene that could make them EVEN shorter.

Why would Aule even put that into their genetics ?

Perhaps it was a mutation?

Well, It gave me a chuckle anyway.Laugh


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 7:06pm

Post #54 of 75 (119 views)
Shortcut
Excellent question - I wonder too [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...is quite suitable in a way. I get the impression that many ancient bodies of myth can be dissected to reveal stylistically contributions from different times and minds. Perhaps it is not inappropriate to have the Sil this way. To put it another way - had Tolkien lived to prepare the Silmarillion for publication himself, I wonder whether he would have "smoothed" the style, or whether he'd have seen it as a feature that Turin is a bleak tragedy, Beren and Luthien a Celtic romance etc. ?




Especially in a sort of retro look at it all...I don't know if anyone else knows more about potentially what he could have been thinking (Voronwe or Geordie...Squire? Anyone?) I like how Turin stands a bit apart, as it is a true tale of Men and (in the context of the Second Prophecy, which I stubbornly hold onto) has very far-reaching impacts on the fate of Men and of Morgoth; with Men bringing the cycle full-circle at the end of this world.

I like the installment style myself, with a few tie-ins, appreciating each tale on its own; a little bit Biblical-style really, intended or not.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 23 2013, 7:06pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 23 2013, 7:36pm

Post #55 of 75 (108 views)
Shortcut
Plus Tailbiter from Farmer Giles… // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Terazed
Bree

Jul 23 2013, 8:41pm

Post #56 of 75 (114 views)
Shortcut
I think JRRT would have gone with a rougher style [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...is quite suitable in a way. I get the impression that many ancient bodies of myth can be dissected to reveal stylistically contributions from different times and minds. Perhaps it is not inappropriate to have the Sil this way. To put it another way - had Tolkien lived to prepare the Silmarillion for publication himself, I wonder whether he would have "smoothed" the style, or whether he'd have seen it as a feature that Turin is a bleak tragedy, Beren and Luthien a Celtic romance etc. ?


Yes. One of the interesting things about Sil was that JRRT was writing a bunch of short stories about different topics in his legendarium in different styles throughout his life. The resulting stories grew organically and overran and contradicted themselves much like a normal mythology would grow over generations only speeded up. CT posthumously edited down to a single story line which artificially smoothed out all the edges much like many mythology compilations do. I have a feeling JRRT would have preferred a rougher more organic Sil that would be like a mythology would naturally develop. One thing I definitely want to do in the future is get back into JRRT's original stories that make up Sil more. Half the fun of reading Norse mythology is reading the contradictions as different story tellers at different times tell their stories to their particular audiences.


Terazed
Bree

Jul 23 2013, 8:54pm

Post #57 of 75 (119 views)
Shortcut
Turin and Nienor...oops I forgot to put in the Sigmund Signy summery [In reply to] Can't Post

I just looked back and I forgot to stick in a summery of the Sigmund and Signy story. This goes along with the Wagner summery I wrote to help make my point the mythology JRRT was working with was very dark. JRRT put an abbreviated version of the story in his 'Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun' but here is a longer summery off of wikipedia. At least I don't have to write it myself. Wagner's primary language is music and 90% of what he wants to say is in the music only so finding a decent plot summery online is quite a bit harder. Anyway here is a summery of the Sigmund Signey brother-sister incest story mostly out of the Volsunga Saga (sorry I don't know how to put an umlaut over the o):


Quote
In the Völsunga saga, Signý marries Siggeir, the king of Gautland (modern Västergötland). Völsung and Sigmund are attending the wedding feast (which lasted for some time before and after the marriage), when Odin, disguised as a beggar, plunges a sword(Gram) into the living tree Barnstokk ("offspring-trunk"[1]) around which Völsung's hall is built. The disguised Odin announces that the man who can remove the sword will have it as a gift. Only Sigmund is able to free the sword from the tree.
Siggeir is smitten with envy and desire for the sword. He tries to buy it but Sigmund refuses. Siggeir invites Sigmund, his father Völsung and Sigmund's nine brothers to visit him in Gautland to see the newlyweds three months later. When the Völsung clan arrive, they are attacked by the Gauts; King Völsung is killed and his sons captured. Signý beseeches her husband to spare her brothers and to put them in stocks instead of killing them. As Siggeir thinks that the brothers deserve to be tortured before they are killed, he agrees.
He then lets his shapeshifting mother turn into a wolf and devour one of the brothers each night. During that time, Signý tries various ruses but fails every time until only Sigmund remains. On the ninth night, she has a servant smear honey on Sigmund's face and when the she-wolf arrives, she starts licking the honey off and sticks her tongue into Sigmund's mouth, whereupon Sigmund bites her tongue off, killing her. Sigmund then escapes his bonds and hides in the forest.
Signý brings Sigmund everything he needs. Bent on revenge for their father's death, she also sends her sons to him in the wilderness, one by one, to be tested. As each fails, she urges Sigmund to kill them, until one day when he refuses to continue killing innocent children. Finally, in despair, she comes to him in the guise of a völva and conceives a child by him, Sinfjötli (the Fitela of Beowulf). Sinfjötli, born of their incest, passes the test.
Sigmund and his son/nephew, Sinfjötli, grow wealthy as outlaws. In their wanderings, they come upon men sleeping in cursed wolf skins. Upon killing the men and putting on the wolf skins, they are cursed with a type of lycanthropy. Eventually, they avenge the death of Völsung.
After Signý dies, Sigmund and Sinfjötli go harrying together. Sigmund marries a woman named Borghild and has two sons, one of them named Helgi. Sinfjötli slays Borghild's brother while vying for a women they both want. Borghild avenges her brother by poisoning Sinfjötli.
Later, Sigmund marries a woman named Hjördís. After a short time of peace, Sigmund's lands are attacked by King Lyngi. In battle, Sigmund matches up against an old man who is Odin in disguise. Odin shatters Sigmund's sword, and Sigmund falls at the hands of others. Dying, he tells Hjördís that she is pregnant and that her son will one day make a great weapon out of the fragments of his sword. That son was to be Sigurd. Sigurd himself had a son named Sigmund, who was killed when he was three years old by a vengeful Brynhild.


I hope I didn't confuse you all too much.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 23 2013, 9:11pm

Post #58 of 75 (97 views)
Shortcut
Welcome Terazed. Glad you can join us! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 23 2013, 9:15pm

Post #59 of 75 (99 views)
Shortcut
Wow! By comparison, Game of Thrones is genteel! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 9:20pm

Post #60 of 75 (103 views)
Shortcut
Thanks Terazed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Very good summation of a violent and dark tale. (Makes Turin's life seem relatively rosy.) But it shares with Turin that old-style Norse tradition of iconic events happening in succession.

Curious - was the testing of the children by Sigmund in the form of combat? Or something else?

(On a purely personal note the male middle name in my family for many generations is Sigurd!)

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 9:21pm

Post #61 of 75 (93 views)
Shortcut
"Lembas-biter" might be a nice Dwarven barb at an Elf I suppose.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2013, 11:10pm

Post #62 of 75 (91 views)
Shortcut
(*puzzled*) Yeah, the roaches were here... [In reply to] Can't Post

  
...but I haven't seen them since that day I made you those cupcakes that you enjoyed so much...


...

Ohhhhhh wait...I think I see what happened. Oops.

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2013, 1:23am

Post #63 of 75 (82 views)
Shortcut
Jump right in, ltnjmy! Only the super-cockroaches bite. (I think.) ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2013, 1:36am

Post #64 of 75 (92 views)
Shortcut
Turin/Tuor [In reply to] Can't Post

 



In Reply To


I wonder if the great love Rian had for Huor,
and her inability to cope with his loss, put Tuor in a much better place maybe
than he might have been? And if not for that he might have had more of a
Turin-like adulthood?






I really enjoy "what if"ing with Turin/Tuor, wondering what if Rian had had the courage to go on living...what if Morwen hadn't been so stubborn about not leaving her home...what if Tuor and Turin had had a chance to meet each other at the Pool of Irvin... The last one is my favorite, and I wonder whose influence would have been stronger...


"To remember love after long sleep; to turn again to poetry after a year in the marketplace, or to youth after resignation to drowsy and stiffening old age; to remember what once you thought life could hold, after telling over with muddied and calculating fingers what it has offered; this is music, made after long silence."--The Hollow Hills



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 24 2013, 1:51am

Post #65 of 75 (90 views)
Shortcut
I think I've started something! [In reply to] Can't Post

Too early to tell what kind of Earth-shattering effects it will have. Wait.... probably none, but it gave me quite a few laughs. Thanks!!Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 2:10am

Post #66 of 75 (86 views)
Shortcut
I enjoy the what-ifs too R-D [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I really enjoy "what if"ing with Turin/Tuor, wondering what if Rian had had the courage to go on living...what if Morwen hadn't been so stubborn about not leaving her home...what if Tuor and Turin had had a chance to meet each other at the Pool of Irvin... The last one is my favorite, and I wonder whose influence would have been stronger...




And I think that is a tribute to JRRT that we don't just read his tales and accept the outcomes - we question and contemplate, and wonder how things could have been different or better.

Fascinating picture of them at the Pool: Tuor is more positive I think in general, but there among the laughing water Turin is actually able to break into song. I wonder if Turin's glamour - a happy Turin - would have been a strong and attractive force!

So would we end up with two handsome semi-outlaws and no Star? Imagine if Tuor had followed him to Nargothrond and met Glaurung. Game over!

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 2:14am

Post #67 of 75 (93 views)
Shortcut
"Little stones start an avalanche"...hopefully not of Super-cockroaches. // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Too early to tell what kind of Earth-shattering effects it will have. Wait.... probably none, but it gave me quite a few laughs. Thanks!!Smile


The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









Terazed
Bree

Jul 24 2013, 3:46am

Post #68 of 75 (78 views)
Shortcut
Just a simple sowing and baking test [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Very good summation of a violent and dark tale. (Makes Turin's life seem relatively rosy.) But it shares with Turin that old-style Norse tradition of iconic events happening in succession.

Curious - was the testing of the children by Sigmund in the form of combat? Or something else?

(On a purely personal note the male middle name in my family for many generations is Sigurd!)


Signy sent her sons to be tested at about age 10. She wanted one brave enough to kill her husband. In the first test they had to sow the cuffs of the shirt to their skin without flinching or crying out. In the second test they were given a bag of flour containing poisonous snakes and told to make a loaf of bread. Each cried out during the first test and refused the second test. When their mother Signy found out she told Sigmund to kill them. Eventually Sinfjotli took the tests. He passed the sowing test without flinching, and for the flour test he told Sigmund that there was something in the flour but he kneaded it into the bread whatever it was.

It is a bit harsh a test for a ten year old, but I guess if you are going to be part of a dragon slaying family kneading poisonous snakes is just a minor annoyance . Somehow I don't think it would have gone over too well if Aragorn tried these tests out on Bergil.

I would warn you not to try these tests at home even if your family's male middle name is Sigurd. positive results are not guarantied. Laugh


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 24 2013, 4:40am

Post #69 of 75 (78 views)
Shortcut
I concur Terazed! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I would warn you not to try these tests at home even if your family's male middle name is Sigurd. positive results are not guarantied. Laugh




Thanks for the details on the tests Terazed - it did seem odd that it could be combat, considering they are children.

That bit about kneading the snakes into dough anyway - wow. Gross. Crunchy bread.

I would say no positive results are possible! WinkCool

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!









CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 24 2013, 5:23pm

Post #70 of 75 (65 views)
Shortcut
Thank you, Itnjmy! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 24 2013, 5:28pm

Post #71 of 75 (72 views)
Shortcut
Kids these days are too soft [In reply to] Can't Post

And they knead those kinds of tests to toughen them up. When I was a kid...

That gruesome tale reminds me of a version of Cinderella I read where the wicked stepmother didn't just disappear from the story, she was forced to dance on hot coals until she died. While I find some modern day movies to be excessively gory, they didn't invent excess violence. There's plenty more in stories from "the good ol' days."


elaen32
Gondor


Jul 24 2013, 9:34pm

Post #72 of 75 (57 views)
Shortcut
A Northern European version of Cinderella [In reply to] Can't Post

has the step sisters hacking off their own toes to make their feet fit in the glass slipper and eventually they are chased away but a pack of crows who peck out their eyeses!!Frown There are many dark tales in mythology, which have been "prettified" for the more genteel tastes of later ages


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 24 2013, 9:36pm

Post #73 of 75 (55 views)
Shortcut
Not the Disney approved version! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 24 2013, 9:47pm

Post #74 of 75 (54 views)
Shortcut
A lot of fairy stories [In reply to] Can't Post

used to be told as moral and cautionary tales, as well as entertainment. Good behavior gets rewarded, and the villain gets what's coming to them, in sometimes quite horrifying ways. Pretty much the only part of this that remains with Disney is their villians' propensity for dying by falling from great heights. You get the scary end, but without the mess. Tongue

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 24 2013, 9:50pm

Post #75 of 75 (80 views)
Shortcut
Yeah, the children back then saw some pretty gruesome things too... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.