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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Prediction about the Dwarves and Smaug **SPOILERS**

Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell

Jul 17 2013, 4:52am

Post #1 of 12 (1448 views)
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Prediction about the Dwarves and Smaug **SPOILERS** Can't Post

We know that Peter Jackson, based on his recent comments, will invent a fight scene between the dwarves and Smaug. By extension, I think that this confrontation will be what cracks off some of the armor encrusted on his belly, creating the bare patch on his left breast. Why? Two reasons:
1. It would make the dwarves look rather weak and ineffective not to have them do any significant damage to the dragon despite a fight scene involving all of them working together. This would not gel with their efficacy on display in AUJ
2. Being the noble, heroic figures that they are, it makes sense for the narrative to give them a part in Smaug's death. 
3. Having partial credit for Smaug's death makes the dwarves easier to root for later on in the story, ie the Arkenstone fiasco. 
 
How do I feel about this? I like it, honestly, but only in lieu of the changes to the dwarves. If the dwarves were the same characters from the book, I wouldn't care whether they had anything to with Smaug's death. 

What do you think? Am I right or wrong? 


utku
Rivendell


Jul 17 2013, 7:45am

Post #2 of 12 (791 views)
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I don't really like this [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the whole point of the conflict between Men/Elves and Dwarves regarding the treasure of Erebor is that Dwarves don't have any claim on it other than building it a hundred year ago. They did absolutely nothing to get rid of the menace while people of Lake Town lived under the fear of him for generations and eventually a lot of them died because Dwarves woke him. If they injure Smaug then they would have a solid argument but I don't want that. While reading the book I felt disappointed that dwarves turned out to be greedy, lazy bunch and I want to feel that same disappointment in the movie as well. I don't care for change in story lines and history but this would change the whole feel of the final chapter.

Yes dwarves do look ineffective and weak but we have come to learn that after Gandalf rescues them several times in AUJ and after Bilbo saves them a few times in DoS. Because well, they may not be racially weak but they are just 13 and not the 13 of the brightest nor the strongest. Smile


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 17 2013, 8:30am

Post #3 of 12 (748 views)
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I would like a balanced picture [In reply to] Can't Post

because that's what I think Tolkien ultimately gives us.

Most of the gold belongs to the dwarves, as does Erebor and especially the Arkenstone. Why shouldn't they try to get it back? And why shouldn't they seek revenge on Smaug? Gandalf is behind them and an instigator of their quest. In the film, we also see that Galadriel understands and is not going to stop them either.

In the book, the Lake Men are foolish to think they are safe from the dragon just because they build a new town on the far side of the lake. Why didn't they evacuate like the dwarves did? And, when the dwarves turn up, they all cheer them on because they have visions of untold wealth. They sing the old songs about how the rivers will flow with gold once the King under the Mountain returns and they stand by the lake and imagine the gold flowing through it. Then they equip the dwarves and encourage them to go on. No-one tries to stop them, not even Bard who wants enough gold to make himself Lord of Dale once more. You could say that the Men are cowards, pushing the dwarves forward and hiding behind them, not willing to risk their own lives or volunteering extra manpower.

It is a lot more complicated than you are making out, utku. And I think the film will show it by trying to make things more equal: the dwarves appear braver but, sensible people who foresee disaster like the Elves and Bard, will try to stop them. But which side is right? You can't eliminate a great scourge without suffering losses as Tolkien himself discovered during WWI. When you sit back and do nothing then even worse things can happen.

Hopefully, all sides will be shown as behaving a bit right and a bit wrong. And so I like the idea of the dwarves confronting Smaug, even if it's only in a small way.


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jul 17 2013, 11:20am

Post #4 of 12 (689 views)
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Do we know for certain PJ has created a direct confrontation between the dwarfs and Smaug? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it was still just speculation.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 17 2013, 11:29am

Post #5 of 12 (744 views)
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If you take EMPIRE to be a credible source [In reply to] Can't Post

Then yes, it is confirmed.

See here and here.


Quote
'Jackson has always felt the book lacked a definite confrontation between the Dwarves and Smaug. He's rectified that. There will be bombs, infernal artillery, and one mightily p***** off dragon. 'It gets pretty crazy'.


Smile

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jul 17 2013, 12:03pm

Post #6 of 12 (647 views)
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Thanks, Mr. B.! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 17 2013, 1:12pm

Post #7 of 12 (644 views)
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Hmmm - don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that we've already seen Smaug in the prologue destroying the whole of Erebor and Dale, with the dwarves unable to do anything but run, I think it would be pretty unrealistic if just thirteen of them manage to do him any significant damage. If they get away with their lives I think it's about the best they can expect.

That said, it's an ingenious idea of yours, and anything's possible. I'm reserving judgement on this confrontation with Smaug until I've seen it. I can understand why they want to include it, equally, I think it risks diminishing Smaug too much if a handful of dwarves can rresist him when a whole city of dwarves and one of men couldn't. And so far the dwarves haven't been all that successful as a fighting team. Just as in the book, trolls, goblins and goblins/wargs got the better of them and they needed Gandalf to intervene.

But if I can see the problem then I'm sure Peter Jackson can, and I wait to see how he deals with it.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 17 2013, 2:35pm

Post #8 of 12 (611 views)
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Lake-town's existence preceded the coming of Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the book, the Lake Men are foolish to think they are safe from the dragon just because they build a new town on the far side of the lake. Why didn't they evacuate like the dwarves did? And, when the dwarves turn up, they all cheer them on because they have visions of untold wealth. They sing the old songs about how the rivers will flow with gold once the King under the Mountain returns and they stand by the lake and imagine the gold flowing through it. Then they equip the dwarves and encourage them to go on. No-one tries to stop them, not even Bard who wants enough gold to make himself Lord of Dale once more. You could say that the Men are cowards, pushing the dwarves forward and hiding behind them, not willing to risk their own lives or volunteering extra manpower.

Hopefully, all sides will be shown as behaving a bit right and a bit wrong. And so I like the idea of the dwarves confronting Smaug, even if it's only in a small way.



Esgaroth was rebuilt at least once before the coming of Thorin and Company. Tolkien doesn't explicitly say that the town had been previously destroyed by Smaug, but suggests that rising lake levels may be to blame. We can speculate on an even earlier version of the town, built on the shore of Long Lake instead of on the surface. That the Men of the Lake remain so near to Lonely Mountain speaks to their tenacity and to their trust of the deep, cold lake to act as a buffer between them and the dragon.

I do agree that some fault should be found within each side of the dispute that leads to the Battle of the Five Armies and that there should be some validity to each of the parties' claims.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell

Jul 17 2013, 7:14pm

Post #9 of 12 (554 views)
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The Dwarves are capable if they play it right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Given that we've already seen Smaug in the prologue destroying the whole of Erebor and Dale, with the dwarves unable to do anything but run, I think it would be pretty unrealistic if just thirteen of them manage to do him any significant damage. If they get away with their lives I think it's about the best they can expect.

That said, it's an ingenious idea of yours, and anything's possible. I'm reserving judgement on this confrontation with Smaug until I've seen it. I can understand why they want to include it, equally, I think it risks diminishing Smaug too much if a handful of dwarves can rresist him when a whole city of dwarves and one of men couldn't. And so far the dwarves haven't been all that successful as a fighting team. Just as in the book, trolls, goblins and goblins/wargs got the better of them and they needed Gandalf to intervene.

But if I can see the problem then I'm sure Peter Jackson can, and I wait to see how he deals with it.


Actually, the dwarves have been quite capable fighters. They were winning against the trolls before they got Bilbo. They were taken by surprise and held down by the goblins, but then managed to kill dozens of them on their way out. The scenes where they were cornered by wargs looked grim, but I imagine they would've been able to take on the ones from the rabbit sled scene even if a few of them were lost in the conflict.

The dwarves of Erebor did not try to dodge Smaug, instead opting for a stout, defensive stance that got them trampled.

The vlog gives us evidence that the dwarves will be triggering mechanisms within Erebor, perhaps during their fight with Smaug.


Kendalf
Rohan


Jul 17 2013, 10:00pm

Post #10 of 12 (513 views)
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Nice hypothesis! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think that this confrontation will be what cracks off some of the armor encrusted on his belly, creating the bare patch on his left breast. Why?


Why? Because we know Jackson, when he makes things up, likes them to happen "for a reason". The example that springs to mind, when I think about the Towers commentary, is the warg attack. If I remember correctly, their thought process was "We need an action scene here; ok, so we need a consequence for it; ok, let's have Aragorn 'fall'".

To have the dwarves confront Smaug (as he's admitted he's planning to do) but have that confrontation have no bearing on subsequent events wouldn't suit Jackson's style (or, indeed, that of any half-decent film-maker).

And that is why ... I like your hypothesis! Smile

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


sycorax82
Rohan

Jul 17 2013, 11:29pm

Post #11 of 12 (487 views)
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The Dwarves may 'confront' Smaug, but actually fight him? [In reply to] Can't Post

How, exactly, can anyone fight Smaug? He's so colossal in size and pretty unstoppable, as seen in the prologue. If the Dwarves faced off against him surely a few of them would die!


LordotRings93
Rohan


Jul 18 2013, 2:48am

Post #12 of 12 (492 views)
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There won't be a fight scene I think [In reply to] Can't Post

As another poster said, more of a confrontation from the shadows or something. You saw how well the dwarves in the prologue fared against Smaug, so how would the Company survive?

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."

 
 

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