Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Pride

Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 3:08pm

Post #1 of 22 (341 views)
Shortcut
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Pride Can't Post

This chapter is fraught with prophecy and tragedy. It is the tale of Turin, the Tale of Grief, but it involves the entire family of Hurin: the house of Hurin pays the blood price for the sheltering of the Star in Gondolin, as Hurin, a Man of pride, will not betray Turgon and the Hidden Kingdom. A part of Men not only in the bloodline, but in the ability of Earandil to survive and to sail West for the salvation of Arda. It is Morgoth's fear of Turgon, with a Vala's foresight of what the Hidden Kingdom may potentially mean, leads Morgoth to torture Hurin by watching the drama of the curse of Morgoth play out. Much of Turin's tale is based in part upon the ancient Finnish epic of the Kalevala, which JRRT was entranced by in 1912-13:
"The germ of my attempt to write legends of my own to fit my private languages was the tragic tale of the hapless Kullervo in the Finnish Kalevala. It remains a major matter in the legends of the First Age (which I hope to publish as The Silmarillion."

Æ J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 257


Pride and honour, as well as actions in anger, are a frequent theme in this hero's tale.

PRIDE:

Turin is clearly wronged by Saeros. He runs away in pride, and a false pride, as no judgment has been passed against him, and takes the name 'Neithan the Wronged.' Thingol indeed deems him guiltless. So what we read is that it is pride that sets him on the road to wandering. Interesting that Morwen herself is proud, and so is Hurin: this apple lies right beneath the family tree.

** Morwen's pride in not leaving her home for the safety of Doriath. It has far-reaching impacts, and Morwen - like Turin - takes no counsel. How would the story have been different if Turin knew she and Nienor were safely housed with Thingol and Melian?

**A very interesting statement that I want to discuss, though it is in CoH and not in the published Sil. When Mim is taken, Turin looks at him long and silent, and says: "You may die, but you shall not be bound again." Is this Turin speaking his own inner thoughts in this deep moment - maybe echoing Morwen's wish that he never be a thrall (for which she sent him away - does that childhood fear live on in the man?); is he reacting to Mim, or is this another example of prophesy? Was living with the Elves and within a society 'binding'? Is his choice of the outlaw life 'freeing' to him? And death being a better option than a return to whatever bondage it is that he flees?

**The Dragon Helm of Dor Lomin: Dwarf-make, pride of the House of Hador, yet the end of all hiding. It represents ultimate protection yet ultimate vulnerability: an Achilles helm, shall we say? as it reveals Turin's true identity to Morgoth on Amon Rudh. Is it pride, madness, good sense - courage, hubris or fate to wear it?

An editorial bit about the Dragon-helm of Dor-Lomin, as Doug Kane points out in Arda Reconstructed. As he fights for Nargothrond at Tumhalad we have Turin wearing a 'dwarf-mask'; in all honestly I must confess that, in mere pleasure-read mode, until checking with A.R. I had always assumed that this was a casually worded reference to the Dragon-helm; it is not. Reading more closely, clearly it refers to a 'dwarf-mask' found in the stores of Nargothrond. A shame, as when fighting a climactic battle it feels 'right' that the Dragon-helm of his fathers would have been what he wore. As Doug points out, some explanation would have been needed to explain its presence in Nargothrond - we read that is has 'vanished from the lands west of Sirion' the last time we conclusively know its location is on Amon Rudh; it is not specified that on the night Amon Rudh is betrayed that Turin wore it. As they were ambushed at night he may not have been, so it may have been inside Amon Rudh. A possible way to get it to Nargothrond might have been if Mim took it, and was then found with it, alive or dead, by Narogthrond scouts - silently awaiting Turin in the halls when he finally arrives. Get your fanfic on, clever friends - any other ideas on how else this could have been written? And would it have been better so?

** How does Mim hold up as a father figure? We have two fathers in the tale here: Hurin and Mim. Both are proud, but behave very differently. Are the comparisons personal variations in pride and choices, or is there an Elf-centric viewpoint here which shows Mim in a dim light?

**The Bridge into Nargothrond, which aids its fight against its enemies yet is the device of its fall - a stony symbol of Turin's pride? Turin's pride in not allowing his own creation to be destroyed leads to the fall of Nargothrond - such a fall foreseen by Ulmo, and one that would predate the fall of Gondolin. Ulmos's words can be seen to apply here - his warning about not loving the work of one's hands or devices of one's heart too well. Indeed, can a philosophic parallel between the Helm of Dor-Lomin and the Bridge of Nargothrond be seen, that may be considered universal?

**Pride and nomenclature. There is a complex evolution of names in the tale: Turin (birthname), Neithan ('Wronged'), Gorthol ('Dread Helm'), Thurin ('Secret') Agarwaen ('the Bloodstained Son of ill Fate'), Mormegil ('the Black Sword'), Adanedhel ('Man-elf'), Wildman of the Woods, Turambar ('Master of Doom'). Parallel, and hauntingly similar choice of prideful names - Morgoth names himself "Master of the Fates" of Arda. Turin also chooses Turambar - the laying aside of the Black Sword and a new name, the most prideful and fey of them all perhaps, the name under which he finds Niniel, defying fate? All this name changing in general - is it a reflection evolution of the character or is it an escape attempt by him? JRRT uses a complex and multi-faceted naming for almost all major characters. For Turin, which way do we think JRRT intended the naming to be perceived?

** Turin's decisions are always internally made it seems, with little regard for the world around him. Turin seems unaware of the hatred that his host Mim has for Beleg, and does not notice either that the resentent is building as Mim sits and broods in the corner. This blindness seems to be Turin's default mode: he is does not see of women's feelings for him, he cannot see Thingol's response after the death of Saeros, he cannot see how his actions will affect Aerin, he is blind to the danger of the Dragon-helm. What is this - emotional blinders? pride? a stubborn will? Are these examples of how we can square Fate with Free will - ie: Fate provides the choices, but Turin makes them? We must consider his temper here too - is he in control of it or is it in control of him?






Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Jul 14 2013, 11:07pm

Post #2 of 22 (212 views)
Shortcut
Saeros [In reply to] Can't Post

Saeros is quite a unique character in a way. He is an immortal Elf, but one which I don't think the histories say anything good about at all. At least some of the others, such as Feanor or his sons whilst they make mistakes, have redemming features. This guy has none! He doesn't sound very much like the wonderful Elves we have come to know in Lotr or the Hobbit. Also, I am beginning to seriously wonder about some of those on Thingol's council. Firstly we have Daeron and now this guy.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 14 2013, 11:33pm

Post #3 of 22 (213 views)
Shortcut
True Hamfast - I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Saeros is quite a unique character in a way. He is an immortal Elf, but one which I don't think the histories say anything good about at all. At least some of the others, such as Feanor or his sons whilst they make mistakes, have redemming features. This guy has none! He doesn't sound very much like the wonderful Elves we have come to know in Lotr or the Hobbit. Also, I am beginning to seriously wonder about some of those on Thingol's council. Firstly we have Daeron and now this guy.




Maybe he is a holdover from Thingol's more xenophobic days, who doesn't have that connection and new-vision of other races that Thingol got through knowing Beren. Absolutely not a nice guy, cruel in his way even. Especially that dig about the women running around only with their hair - as someone who has lost a sister and has 'lost' his mother and other sister its a nasty dig at Turin.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







elaen32
Gondor


Jul 15 2013, 9:54pm

Post #4 of 22 (207 views)
Shortcut
Pride... [In reply to] Can't Post

Turin does not seem to learn from his mistakes does he? He is always jumping to conclusions in his pride and does not stop to think whether in running away from or running towards. Some people are too proud or too stubborn to learn from their mistakes and they usually come a cropper eventually.
I have to say, by the time he gets to refusing to destroy the bridge at Nargothrond, I am losing patience a bit- you want to shake him. In this, he does seem to take after Morwen- she shows her pride in refusing to leave her homeland- which is understandable, but maybe not practical in the circumstances. I think that the whole story would have been quite different if she had left with Turin- he would have had her influence rather than being revered as Thingol's foster-son. It would have been more difficult for Saeros to taunt him and hence for Turin to have slain him and absconded
The Helm of Dorlomin is a difficult one to call- yes there was pride and hubris, but also some protection, which is what he most needed at the time. What can a man do against the reckless hate of Morgoth?
In many things, Turin is emotionally blind- is this perhaps due to his upbringing? At an early age, his father is captured, his sister dies and his mother sends him away to the Kingdom of a race alien to his own. There he is feted as a foster-son of Thingol and possibly spoilt in some ways. However, he has no obvious emotional resource- we have seen in previous chapters that Melian is a little aloof as a mother and is unlikely to have played a major part in his emotional development. Thus Turin has been thrown onto his own emotional resources and inner thoughts. This would make him more likely to take counsel only with himself and to be unaware of the potential effect that he has on others and also unaware of the emotional responses of others.


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 1:05am

Post #5 of 22 (197 views)
Shortcut
Turin in his own world [In reply to] Can't Post

in a way, a little like his foster-uncle Thingol. Maybe being raised in Doriath, and lacking connection with parents, might have changed him. He leads such an inward life and does not seem that sensitive to the motives of others. Interesting that like many of his flawed heroes they have had parental losses early in life - I can speculate of course that because JRRT had a real life experience in this way it was close to his heart, and he understood its impact.

The tale of Kullervo has a young man cast into slavery and separated from his mother at a tender age. JRRT says very early in his career (in 1914) when writing to Edith, and referencing the Kalevala, that "I am trying to turn one of the stories - which is really a very great story and most tragic - into a short story..." (Letter #1) Not directly stated but doubtless the tale of Kullervo.

He also speaks of how the Finnish language captured him, "Like discovering a complete wine-cellar filled with bottles of an amazing wine of a kind and flavor never tasted before." and specifically of the take of Kullervo: "But the beginning of the legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was an attempt to reorganize some of the Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own." (Letter # 163).

So while I think the language played a huge part for him, with his fine tuned ear, the grip of the story perhaps, of buffeted, orphaned Kullervo, might have really spoke to him. I think maybe he had a feel for the isolation, and the inner vision such things can give a sensitive soul when occurring early in life; a bit speculative but part of me thinks that this is some of what we see in Turin's lonely, isolated and somewhat clueless nature. Noting how central the tale is as well, to the structure of the older parts of the legendarium.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 16 2013, 11:08am

Post #6 of 22 (189 views)
Shortcut
Turin vs cousin Tuor [In reply to] Can't Post

All great points, elaen. Difficult childhoods affect people differently, of course. Tuor seems to make lemonade out of his lemons.

Both lost their fathers as children and had their homeland overrun.
Tuor's mother died early; Turin was separated from his rather early.
Tuor was raised by Elves much as Turin was, though in more desperate circumstances.
Tuor wound up a slave of the Easterlings, a fate Turin escaped.
As grown men, both became outlaws, but Turin preyed on the good guys, and Tuor only on the Easterlings.
Both wound up in hidden Elf-kingdoms where they were held in high-esteem (would Turin have married Luthien if the whole Beren thing hadn't happened?).

Tuor didn't have a Morgothian curse on him, and didn't have excessive pride. In fact, it's rumored he was joined to the Eldar race somehow, but it's hard to imagine that happening to Turin.

Tuor wasn't "wronged" as Turin was in Doriath, but Turin could have rectified that situation and had support but rejected it.

Generally, Tuor comes as across more moderate and more sensible than his cousin, despite their similarities.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 16 2013, 6:34pm

Post #7 of 22 (182 views)
Shortcut
I think you're right to point out that he's tone deaf to other people and to the consequences of his actions … [In reply to] Can't Post

…as well as proud. Theres something almost autistic about him. I have met real life people like this: oblivious to everything except their own thoughts and feelings. When, predictably, it all goes wrong, like Turin it's crazed remorse, or its all somebody else's fault (go on Turin, give yourself another everybody's- against-me nickname).

Poor chap.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jul 16 2013, 6:40pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 7:23pm

Post #8 of 22 (175 views)
Shortcut
Nice comparison here CG! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
All great points, elaen. Difficult childhoods affect people differently, of course. Tuor seems to make lemonade out of his lemons.

Both lost their fathers as children and had their homeland overrun.
Tuor's mother died early; Turin was separated from his rather early.
Tuor was raised by Elves much as Turin was, though in more desperate circumstances.
Tuor wound up a slave of the Easterlings, a fate Turin escaped.
As grown men, both became outlaws, but Turin preyed on the good guys, and Tuor only on the Easterlings.
Both wound up in hidden Elf-kingdoms where they were held in high-esteem (would Turin have married Luthien if the whole Beren thing hadn't happened?).

Tuor didn't have a Morgothian curse on him, and didn't have excessive pride. In fact, it's rumored he was joined to the Eldar race somehow, but it's hard to imagine that happening to Turin.

Tuor wasn't "wronged" as Turin was in Doriath, but Turin could have rectified that situation and had support but rejected it.

Generally, Tuor comes as across more moderate and more sensible than his cousin, despite their similarities.




Never compared them line-by-line this way. Many of your points really resonate - interesting thought of Turin and Luthien coming across each other. I can see the appeal unidirectionally, *perhaps* (maybe) for Luthien, in the glamour of Turin perhaps; - but I don't think anyone could touch him except Nienor/Niniel, maybe because that's the "something" he was 'looking' for in a woman and never found with anyone else (ie: that sense of sameness, familiarity. A solution to his lack of connection with the rest of the world?)

So overall Tuor makes different choices than Turin. That whole fate vs free will dynamic.

I think our speculation is fun, but JRRT would never consider anyone for Luthien other than Beren (you may have just made his headstone twitch just a bit there, CG!)

(We get more of a glimpse of Turin as a honorable outlaw in CoH - like him saving the young woman in the forest, and killing his own leader to do it.)

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







elaen32
Gondor


Jul 16 2013, 8:45pm

Post #9 of 22 (174 views)
Shortcut
Turin v Tuor [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, a lot of similarities, but Tuor didn't have Morwen as a mother- Turin seems to have inherited his almost unreasonable pride and stubbornness from his mother- his father's pride seems to be of a slightly different nature. Rian is not portrayed as being like Morwen in that respect and she died before she had much influence.
Also, I get the impression that Turin was treated as more of a little prince in Doriath than Tuor was in Nevrast


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



elaen32
Gondor


Jul 16 2013, 8:50pm

Post #10 of 22 (172 views)
Shortcut
That's an interesting thought NoWiz [In reply to] Can't Post

and the autistic comparison had occurred to me regarding Turin. He does not have much concept of what others are feeling and thinking and is oblivious to the effect that he and his actions have on others. He reminds me of a couple of people I know, who have Asperger's. Which isn't to say "Oh Turin is autistic", but he does have some traits IMO


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 9:31pm

Post #11 of 22 (167 views)
Shortcut
Nicknames - they do have a pattern don't they? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 9:39pm

Post #12 of 22 (170 views)
Shortcut
That's saying a mouthful [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes, a lot of similarities, but Tuor didn't have Morwen as a mother- Turin seems to have inherited his almost unreasonable pride and stubbornness from his mother- his father's pride seems to be of a slightly different nature. Rian is not portrayed as being like Morwen in that respect and she died before she had much influence.
Also, I get the impression that Turin was treated as more of a little prince in Doriath than Tuor was in Nevrast




that's so spot-on: Morwen's pride (stiffnecked, actions taken with no regard for counsel...) is a different breed of pride than Hurin, I think exactly so. Hurin is proud and loyal, and takes hurt upon himself in order to keep his honor and what he feels important. Morwen's seems more independent for the sake of it...not that I disagree with a strong female nature in principle at all, but she seems to miss considering the other options available to her in choosing the 'toughest', hardest and quite dangerous course - sadly her danger is shared among the children, completely unintended but sad nonetheless.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 16 2013, 9:51pm

Post #13 of 22 (172 views)
Shortcut
He seems narcissistic to me [In reply to] Can't Post

As I understand narcissists, they are often superficially charming, but they don't equate other people with themselves and only take their own feelings as real. One description I read said, "You don't apologize to the carpet for walking on it everyday, do you? That's how narcissists see other people." The world revolves around them, they're the only one with feelings, so when they're hurt, they blame the world and feel like the only victim in the world. Turin isn't 100% like that, but he comes daringly close. Or maybe he's autistic. Clearly something isn't right.

He and Tuor both had Fate meddling with their lives. Tuor made all the right decisions, and Turin's could have gone a whole lot better. It's a shame his prodigious warrior skills couldn't be put to better use. Imagine him facing off against Morgoth, Fingolfin-style! Not that I think he'd win, but Morgoth would wind up hobbling on both feet after that duel instead of one, I am sure.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 17 2013, 12:03pm

Post #14 of 22 (158 views)
Shortcut
You mean the helm and the bridge are two-edged swords? :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Really like that observation about the helm!
Re the bridge, I've got beyond thinking "tut, nobody thought of building a drawbridge!" In fact, any large-scale military activity risked giving away the location of their base, so having the bridge built was a concrete symbol of the problem Turin was causing them, but part of a larger risk he was having them run in resorting to large-scale battling more often.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 17 2013, 5:56pm

Post #15 of 22 (146 views)
Shortcut
On the nosey, Furincurunir! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
***You mean the helm and the bridge are two-edged swords? :) *** Really like that observation about the helm!
Re the bridge, I've got beyond thinking "tut, nobody thought of building a drawbridge!" In fact, any large-scale military activity risked giving away the location of their base, so having the bridge built was a concrete symbol of the problem Turin was causing them, but part of a larger risk he was having them run in resorting to large-scale battling more often.




Exactly!!! Absolutely what I was thinking: like pride itself. It protects yet makes one vulnerable. It can gain you your dearest dreams or cost you everything you have. Just like those two pieces of double-edged Pride that in some ways define Turin.

(Indis case, both lead to destruction and downfall.)

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 18 2013, 2:31pm

Post #16 of 22 (132 views)
Shortcut
Some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Pride is a definite factor here, but I think that we need to differentiate between two types of pride.

1.Pride in yourself

2.Pride of yourself

It is the pride in you that can be a problem. When you become an egocentric maniac.

The pride of yourself is the one that can help you. You should be satisfied in what you have accomplished. You know your limits and have pushed them to a new level, kudos to you.

Turin's childhood

Having been thrown into a harsh situation as a child, Turin is faced with two choices. To grow up or break. Having experienced a bit of this myself, I think that I have a bit of insight.

I was forced to grow up a bit faster than I was prepared to do. Sometimes I can to problems that were too big for my juvenile brain, and I reacted in a childish way.

Turin too had this choice. He was burdened by the weight of a family legacy, he was supposed to uphold the pride of his house and was expected to be an image of his father. This was drilled into him since his childhood days, and he seems to repeat it quite a lot. "I am the son of Hurin so...." whatever task was before him, had to be done in a "Hurin approved/honoring" way. However, he did not have the wisdom that his father had in making these decisions. Thus he responded in some cases, as a child might do,"No you are not breaking my bridge, no, no" .He was like a ruler trying to rule out of a history book. Without the knowledge gained by experience in the situation, he could not really expect the same results.

The influence of Morwen

We cannot ignore his mother's part in any of this. Their sense of honor and pride can be closely paralleled. It is possible that Morwen also felt the weight of Hurin's honor rested upon her and her son. She is not fully fleshed out as a character until after her husband has been taken, so we don't know how dependent she was upon him. She could have been a weaker sort of woman , leaning on Hurin, totally unprepared for what was to come. Her pride strikes me as a "hopeless hope" with no real courage behind it. She did not have the strength of Hurin to step out and challenge fate, but instead to sit down and hold her head high.
Some of this weight she could have also passed on to her son. How many nights did she tell him in secret ,of the great deeds of his father, how Turin mush have idolized his larger than life sire! I can almost hear the words of Morwen to her son "Go do great deeds, and bring honor to us worthy of your father!" A tragic course of pride indeed! There were fundamental differences in their situations, though.

The difference in their situations was this. Hurin had nothing to lose by his stubborn pride, except his life. He also had no help near him at the time, it WAS Hurin against Morgoth.
While Turin and Morwen had much to gain in their struggles. They had those around them, whom they could have used to help them, but in many cases their sense of family pride, held them back. I also get the feeling that they took personal credit for the successes in heir life, marginalizing the roles played by others in their life, in their minds.

At the end, Morwen is not joyful to see her husband her stubborn, "resigned to my fate" sense of pride still holds her in check. She has become a solitary tower fun off from the rest of the world, and has locked herself inside.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 2:00am

Post #17 of 22 (122 views)
Shortcut
Hurin vs Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

I like all your points here, its a great description of the different shades of pride that we see featured in our Edain, especially Hurin's family.

About Hurin and Morgoth - that is how I see it. Hurin can have no reasonable foresight as to the actions of Morgoth, or that he would target his family based upon his actions (which are honorable - he will not give up Turgon). His jeopardy in defying Morgoth really was fully expected to come on himself.

The tale of Kullervo adapted as Turin is, seemed to require a villain other than Fate - so I think that is the role Morgoth steps into here. CG made this point upthread too, and I agree. But I like the point about Morgoth that it brings out: with all his Master of Fates talk, he still serves the Song of Eru; and if there is any actuality to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, the savagery Morgoth inflicts upon Hurin and Turin will be the cause of his ultimate demise, through their revenge in the Last Battle.

I like that idea.


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 19 2013, 5:06am

Post #18 of 22 (120 views)
Shortcut
Comments on your comment [In reply to] Can't Post

I do agree as well.

Hurin did what he thought was right, and it was morally good. He could never have known the effect that his defiance would have. He left his family safe and sound, and couldn't know of the easterlings' planned attack and occupation. Yet another layer of tragedy.

I have not looked at the source take yet, (shame on me!), but from your synopsis, I concur. For a Finnish myth fate is a good adversary, but in a more complex world, with existing evil, you need a bit of a clever rewrite.

I find it hilarious that we speak of Morgoth 'using' things to manipulate Hurin and his family, yet he is used here, by the author, to further the plot! Literary irony? I think Turin really is his own enemy here, but Morgoth steps in to take the visible blame, and not to mention muddling Turin's mind a bit more. I don't think that Tolkien wanted the protagonist be the antagonist as well, thus my thought in the ascribed blame to Morgoth.

The ideas about the sword Anglechal( I hope that is right spelling) in the RR are just genius, pure and simple. I had always marginalized that a bit. The final battle and the revenge of Hurin/Turin is a piece of poetic justice if I ever read any.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 19 2013, 9:25am

Post #19 of 22 (116 views)
Shortcut
Two kinds of pride [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, that's a very important distinction. It would be OK for Prof Tolkien to be proud of having written such successful books. Less OK for him to decide that he was therefore the greatest author ever and boorishly go around demanding all kinds of honours (don't think he did that, just giving an example Wink).

I believe the distinction is often termed "authentic pride" (OK) vs "hubristic pride" (dodgy) - more over here if you like this subject!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 4:13pm

Post #20 of 22 (98 views)
Shortcut
You find the most interesting references... [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like being aware of self and others is a distinction - the authentic pride items are reality based, merit based and aware and cognizant of other peoples perceptions. Whereas the hubristic pride items are more delusional and seeking perhaps to dominate/influence others, based solely on own valuations?

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jul 20 2013, 4:52pm

Post #21 of 22 (89 views)
Shortcut
Good way of putting it! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Seems like being aware of self and others is a distinction - the authentic pride items are reality based, merit based and aware and cognizant of other peoples perceptions. Whereas the hubristic pride items are more delusional and seeking perhaps to dominate/influence others, based solely on own valuations?


I think that's a good way of putting the idea.
So- Aragorn shows authentic pride (a fair observer would agree with his opinion of his capabilities), whereas Turin is into the hubristic

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 20 2013, 5:20pm

Post #22 of 22 (99 views)
Shortcut
Indeed - maybe because of the virtual unawareness!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Seems like being aware of self and others is a distinction - the authentic pride items are reality based, merit based and aware and cognizant of other peoples perceptions. Whereas the hubristic pride items are more delusional and seeking perhaps to dominate/influence others, based solely on own valuations?


I think that's a good way of putting the idea.
So- Aragorn shows authentic pride (a fair observer would agree with his opinion of his capabilities), whereas Turin is into the hubristic




In contrast Aragorn seems well aware of everyone and their strengths and merits, even more sometimes than they are.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.






 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.