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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Sil discussion of Turin Turambar: Prophesy and Premonition
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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree


Jul 19 2013, 1:32am

Post #51 of 65 (225 views)
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.Sword talk... [In reply to] Can't Post


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Looking forward to more of that this coming week in some of our essays!


(This post was edited by TORn Amateur Symposium on Jul 19 2013, 1:40am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 1:47am

Post #52 of 65 (200 views)
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Best profile of Anglachel I've read!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Intentional or no? I would argue that Anglachel may not have necessarily known that Turin would have killed Beleg; I don't think the sword has foresight. But perhaps it was just too excited, with all the orc killing, that it just had to have one more bite and Turin was the closest thing. The closest not-exactly-a-saint thing. (I admittedly have problems with Turin that I hope to explain in the other chapter thread.) Maybe the mourning for Beleg is in part it feeling guilty for causing it to happen. I can't believe I am continuing to suggest this, but it is a little like the character of Dexter, who has "fond" "feelings" for those people who are close to him and are morally good. And like Dexter, whether you think Dexter (or Anglachel) is morally bad or morally good depends on whether you think all killing is morally bad, or whether you think killing bad people is morally good. Tricky, tricky stuff.

I think the sword does have agency, as it clearly has sentience when it kills Turin (and, again, happily!) I just don't think it is particularly reflective or savvy when it comes to its actions; it acts spontaneously, then regrets .

Maybe its other-worldliness imbues the sword with a totally different moral code? OK, yes, enough Star Trek...




Love your psych profile here (and I loved the first 2 seasons of Dexter) and that's a fabulous explanation for the 'why' of the night of Beleg's death, incorporating text that we know: the sword DOEs love to war, it IS happy killing Orcs: maybe it was just in the moment, and as you say wanted just another taste...that does explain the mourning, if it has guilt. Which it clearly has some 'code' it isn't an evil blade. It judges Brandir better than Turin does.

Can its 'conscience' (and maybe otherworldly, Dark-elf sentience) and its agency be why it breaks (beyond the obvious symbolism) because its waiting for the day that it can rise with Turin again, and have a taste of the ultimate blood: Morgoth's?

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 1:55am

Post #53 of 65 (199 views)
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Well we know you are fun when you post tired...! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the difference is that Miriel had everything to live for, and I think Niniel has such an overwhelming grief and sense of defilement and loss that she hasn't got anything to live for. Turambar was her world and she essentially lost him - and has to contemplate the nagging sense of doom (that baby) that she's been feeling.

Names are very similar. I looked up the -iel ending in the online Elvish dictionary, and it seems to indicate 'girl'. So maybe in his language these names are very basic, central to the mythos maybe, in a way.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 2:40am

Post #54 of 65 (195 views)
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Glad to see you Sador! [In reply to] Can't Post


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But perhaps the long break will teach me moderation. Who knows? But we miss you when you take breaks Sador! And who needs moderation on TORn? Cool

Beleg the Elf still chooses to take this blade. But is her prophesy fully correct?
Well, it did not seem to love Turin - although it did mourn for Beleg (per Gwindor, and see its last words), so arguably Melian was wrong!
Also, why would it break upon taking Turin's life? Is this a sign of his greatness, or did the sword really love him? (Note that this detail is not in the Kalevala excerpt you've posted)
At least the second part of Melian's prophecy proved correct!
I agree here about the ??? of the breaking. Purely symbolic, yes...overused as a device? Maybe, but that's why I want to assign some sense to it maybe. As I mentioned to Rembrethil, I take a deep love in the idea that *maybe* its Second Prophecy material: Anglachel breaks and awaits the return of Turin, because in Turin's hand he will get Morgoth. Its purely speculative but it feels right and proper to me somehow.

Is this all an example of the higher vision and comprehension of the Firstborn and a Vala, and how it all tells against the hapless, clueless Edain?
I would rather say that Gwindor had learned from bitter experience how Morgoth's evil works.
He has, as he tells Finduilas. And he has had more time to learn that harsh lesson.

Is there premonition in Niniel's refusal of Turambar's proposal?
Tolkien indicates so. But is there premonition in Brandir's warnings, or merely jealousy? And perhaps Niniel simply heeded Brandir's advice for a time, before love proved stronger than gratitude.
That's a great point, and I hadn't considered that as a motive - love finally overcoming gratitude. It does speak well to Nienor/Niniel's character to me if so...she does not abandon all sense for this love, but heeds some counsel of someone who cares for her, until - as you say - Turambar presents her with the (loving, but still an ultimatum) ultimatum and she chooses her course.

We have already read of pure, uncorrupted love in the immediate connection of Beren and Luthien.
How?
Yes, I know that's what Tolkien meant. But did he write it down anywhere - or are we readers just romantic-minded?
Yes, yes, we are very romantic minded my friend! Wink Well I guess we (as a generalization) did feel that in conclusion to CG's analysis of Beren and Luthien, in large part due to the lack of dialogue they seem to 'need' and the fast and spiritual connection they have. So no, I would not say it is written directly - but we seemingly see a different pattern with Turin and Niniel.

Do we have its moral opposite here, deep yet sadly corrupted love, unknowingly impure at its base, in the hesitation of Niniel?
If it is "unknowingly impure", can we call it "corrupted"? You seem to consider love an independant force, rather than an interaction between the two characters.
In the world of Greco-Roman myth, this is natural and obvious. But Tolkien's pantheon does not include any Vala who is in charge of love, and as a rule the Holy Ones appear to be quite ignorant of such quirks of the Children's psyche
. That's true. We are a puzzle I am sure to them. (We puzzle each other regularly!) Hope all is well by you, and that we see you about!


Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 2:44am

Post #55 of 65 (194 views)
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*waving* Hi! Nice to see you! [In reply to] Can't Post

More threads to come as well! I am posting some more tonight.
Glad to know you are reading along with us! Smile I hope you will join us in the Symposium too this coming week!

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 19 2013, 4:33pm

Post #56 of 65 (201 views)
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"I told you, man: fight, trust and be full of hope!" [In reply to] Can't Post

This is nicely inverted by Imre Madách in his great work The Tragedy of Man (1861). (Wait. 1861? Oh! I guess it's the other way around! Tolkien inverted Madách!)

Anyway, after being brought to despair by visions of the future by LUCIFER:

ADAM: Hold on! I have a thought that flash'd through my mind -
I can defy you, even you, my Lord.
Though hundred times fate set date of my life:
I laugh at it and if suits me, I won't live.
Or am I not all by myself in the world?
There is the cliff for me and depth's below...
A jump as a last moment of an act,
The comedy, I'll say, has come to an end.

(ADAM moves towards the cliff, EVE steps out of the door.)

...

EVE: I do know, your dark brows will be clear'd
When I tell you. But come closer to me:
Ah, Adam, I'm in the family way.

(ADAM goes down on his knees)

ADAM: My Lord, you conquer'd me, I'm in the dust,
Without, against you my fight is in vain, and
Raise or punish me, I open my heart.

...

[At the end]:

THE LORD: I told you, man: fight, trust and be full of hope!

(The Tragedy of Man is one of the greatest literary works of Hungarian literature. Tolkien apparently based his invented language of Mágo/Mágol on a mixture of Hungarian and Sindarin. Supposedly Old Mágo is the language spoken by the children of Húrin. Supposedly at one time Tolkien thought about making Mágo/Mágol Orkish, but changed his mind. As a result some puckishly call the language "Mork".)

******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 19 2013, 4:41pm

Post #57 of 65 (187 views)
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Seems to be a pattern. [In reply to] Can't Post

Niënor, Húrin, Elwing, Maedhros. Then again if we take Jackson's Rivendell as canon, Middle-earth did seem to be alarmingly bereft of safety railings.

******************************************
"The tragedy of territorial geeks is that they found the wonderful world of fantasy, then missed its point."
-Luke McKinney


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea

Jul 19 2013, 5:20pm

Post #58 of 65 (181 views)
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Comments on names/words in Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post

Names seem to be very important. In the past, names often were meant to reflect WHO a person really was, and this could be an example of Tolkien trying to do the same. Elsewhere the importance of names/words is stated as important.

In Luthien's conflict with Thu? in the Pit of cats, the word of command, once surrendered, crumbled the fortress and left them in a diminutive state, bereft of magical power

Treebeard also states that he will not give out his true name to strangers, because if one knows a person's true name, they can work all kind of terrible magic against you.

Then you have Dwarves, with their secret name and language. Perhaps, this was to shield them from magic, possibly an instinct from Aule, who wanted them to endure the evil of Morgoth?

This idea is important, as it is not abandoned in the final drafts of LotR.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 19 2013, 5:55pm

Post #59 of 65 (186 views)
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Love your inversion point here Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post

I see another one that he may have been thinking, in Turin and Niniel's origins as a couple - its in the Doomed Women thread way up on top there - in Glaurung's inversion as the Serpent in Original Sin, taking knowledge versus giving knowledge.

(TH board might have fun with an actual "Morkish" language, you know. Apparently that's what Azog speaks, or so I hear.) Wink

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 20 2013, 6:56pm

Post #60 of 65 (168 views)
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Creepy swords [In reply to] Can't Post

So Anglachel is a serial killer like Dexter? I guess if it's in the right hands. I agree that it seems to enjoy killing, and Turin gives it its outlet. A sword as creepy as its maker. I'm rather relieved when it's broken and useless, even if it was used for killing bad guys. It seemed like trouble. As Melian said about the Sons of Feanor, this sword had two edges. Or it cuts both ways?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 2:22am

Post #61 of 65 (161 views)
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It does cut two ways... [In reply to] Can't Post


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So Anglachel is a serial killer like Dexter? I guess if it's in the right hands. I agree that it seems to enjoy killing, and Turin gives it its outlet. A sword as creepy as its maker. I'm rather relieved when it's broken and useless, even if it was used for killing bad guys. It seemed like trouble. As Melian said about the Sons of Feanor, this sword had two edges. Or it cuts both ways?




...yet seems to have its own sort of code, doesn't it? I suppose if you are a sword, desiring death is a bit of a 'normal' psych eval. Maybe their DSM contains mental aberrations like 'squeamishness' and 'hemophobia' and 'arc inertia'.

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 21 2013, 5:03pm

Post #62 of 65 (154 views)
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Also, ferrophobia? [In reply to] Can't Post

The fear of iron and rusting? I'd be neurotic about that, if I were a sword. But if I'm thinking like a sword, I must be totally neurotic.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 21 2013, 8:25pm

Post #63 of 65 (141 views)
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Interesting to be "thinking like a sword" in the context of NoWiz's metaphor...// ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Coming soon!- The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.







elaen32
Gondor


Jul 21 2013, 9:15pm

Post #64 of 65 (142 views)
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+Snert!+ [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I cannot think what you meanCrazyAngelic


The first TORn Amateur Symposium, IS NOW ON from Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Come and join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work



Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 25 2013, 3:06am

Post #65 of 65 (140 views)
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Interesting information found in Bruinen's History of the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise is an Icelandic work, translated by C. Tolkien. Among other similarities, it features a cursed sword, Tyrfing.

The parallel between Anglachel and Tyrfing is very interesting. Cursed Tyrfing cannot be sheathed unless blood is drawn...is that why Anglachel is so pleased to war - then it can sleep? And the utterly puzzling question: the cutting of Turin's foot leading to the death of Beleg. Is it a similar curse, and the taste of blood was needed for Anglachel to rest - and that little taste having unintended consequences, for which the sword itself grieves? Here not so much a 'curse' perhaps in the literal sense, unlike Tyrfing, but the shade of Eol in Anglachel.

Might explain that part of the tale of Turin, which on the surface seems a deep herald of meaning. I think that may be it. Cool

The first TORn Amateur Symposium starts this week in the Reading Room! Come and join in!








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