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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
gondolin themes in the hobbit!? SPOILERS MAJOR
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Lothwen
Rivendell


Jul 11 2013, 12:48pm

Post #51 of 64 (269 views)
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If it wasn't called The Hobbit? [In reply to] Can't Post



'There lie the woods of Lothlorien!' said Legolas. 'That is the fairest of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold.'


GoBlue
The Shire

Jul 11 2013, 12:49pm

Post #52 of 64 (284 views)
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actually [In reply to] Can't Post

you know what, I guess I always assumed this was an earlier account, although I didn't know exactly how much earlier, once I read that Tolkien made the note about there never having been more than a few balrogs.

The account out of lost tales however, is the one I always chose to read and "believe" because it's so beautiful and has more detail. And Tolkien did write it, after all. In my head, I chose to reconcile the 'number of balrogs' issue by thinking that the balrog under Moria had grown considerably stronger by the 3rd age, and with the returning power of Sauron. Thus, I could believe that Gandalf was no slouch for having met his match...


architecthis
Lorien


Jul 11 2013, 1:11pm

Post #53 of 64 (276 views)
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great post! [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW, I hope this happens exactly as you've described it!

A truly epic flashback and narrated by Thranduil........

This has really got me excited. I don't think I'll be able to go back to working for a little while now.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 11 2013, 1:37pm

Post #54 of 64 (273 views)
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Nice post; one small correction [In reply to] Can't Post

You wrote:


In Reply To

Dragons are explicitly mentioned as having been part of its [Gondolin's] destruction in Fellowship





Actually, while the fall of Gondolin is mentioned a couple of times in LOTR (both in Book 2 of FotR and in the appendices), no such detail is given. However, in The Hobbit itself, Elrond tells Gandalf and Thorin, when talking about Orcrist and Glamdring, "They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago." That is likely what you were thinking of.

Of course, all of this is idle speculation, since this report is completely untrue. But that doesn't make it less fun to pass the time.




'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 11 2013, 1:53pm

Post #55 of 64 (255 views)
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It was, I believe, the very first [In reply to] Can't Post

Middle-earth related story that Tolkien ever wrote, and it was written around 1916 or 1917. So, yes, it was written long before Tolkien revised the number of balrogs.

I agree with you, though, that reading it is such a pleasure. It's very rich in details and characters.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2013, 4:50pm

Post #56 of 64 (199 views)
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Thats right [In reply to] Can't Post

because none of those ideas belong in Bilbo's tale. Let Jackson write some spin off film about middle earth with no ties to Tolkien's writing and he can add whatever he wants. I still believe he should just tell the story he is "supposed" to be adapting and leave it at that.


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Jul 11 2013, 5:20pm

Post #57 of 64 (194 views)
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glad for the expansion [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish the Tolkien Estate had sold the movie rights to everything. I don't think there is any hard and fast "supposed story" since given the rights as they are contractually expressed allows the ability to make the LotR and Hobbit to be adapted in whatever way desired as long as they don't infringe any other copyright or trademarked material. Expanding the story with additional material available under that contract, or making changes for story purpose or artistic interpretation doesn't infringe on anything. I suppose if somehow what they did damaged the Tolkien Estate in some way, some legal argument might be brought but we know the movie right transaction was a financial deal, and as such the movies have been an enormous financial boon to the Estate with highly stimulated book sales. I guess the only real story that is "supposed" to be told is purely subjective and at the discretion of the one helming the project.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 11 2013, 6:22pm

Post #58 of 64 (191 views)
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I love the BOLT Fall of Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

especially the description of how the houses are arrayed and the flutes of the House of the Fountain as they march to battle. Add to this the more descriptive non Sil writing of Tuors arrival at Gondolin, his passage through it's 7 gates, meeting Ecthelion in his majesty and later on Turgon, Gondolin is one of my favourite places to imagibe.


KingTurgon
Rohan


Jul 11 2013, 8:18pm

Post #59 of 64 (148 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
perhaps this is some sort of ulterior plan to give Christopher Tolkien a heart attack so they can nick the rights to the books



We've speculated (jokingly of course) that every time PJ makes a drastic change to the story, he calls CT up and rubs in it his face - "Hey Christopher, guess what we've done to the story now? AHAHAHA!!!"



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 12 2013, 5:15am

Post #60 of 64 (117 views)
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Exactly. The book of lost tales, in which Christopher Tolkien releases an unaltered draft of the 1917 -1920 [In reply to] Can't Post

earliest manuscript of The Fall of Gondolin, one which both his father and he later expressed to be largely inaccurate and invalid.

The elder Tolkien did not at all have a firm grasp yet on the legendarium and cosmos of Ea and Arda at that time. There would be massive revisions.


That is the main Reason Christopher Tolkien leaves it out of The Silmarillion. He had access to The Fall of Gondolin as it was written, but he new it to be a very early draft that was never directly revised, even though many of the significant details, from the names of some of The Princes, to the number and nature and potency of Balrogs (by his Father's explicit later commentaries and notations, there were never many of these Powerful Maiar demons, and that certainly the notion of Elves having killed them by the half dozen or more was absurd. There were never legions and, probably "no more than 7 ever existed".

The Fall of Gondolin as it appears in Lost Tales is actually one of the earliest written accounts of Middle Earth, and a huge amount of the details were terribly inaccurate when contrasted against later more established accounts. Looking at The Fall in connection with the whole, it can only be seen as a VERY rough draft. That it happened is established as fact, but the details were full of error, so Chirstopher culls those details out of the Silmarillion, save for the fact that Glorfindel and Ecthellion slay and are slain by Balrogs, being the only two Elves in the recorded history of the cannonical Legendarium to have accomplished such feats.

In Reply To
...has the expanded chapter about the fall of Gondolin:

"...the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid, for it sang like the rush of eagle's wings in the air and took death as it fell, and five of them went down before it."

(the previous page also mentions Balrogs riding on the fire drakes, in order to make it over the breaches in the walls)

I'll do some more reading, but are you saying that this account of the fall of Gondolin was written earlier, before JRRT revised down the number of Balrogs that existed?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 12 2013, 5:20am

Post #61 of 64 (118 views)
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I think much of the fall can remain intact, and would, even if Christopher or his father himself were to revise it for publication as a part of the legendarium rather [In reply to] Can't Post

than as an insight into its early framework.

It would remain beautiful with ridden dragons at all. It is just that some of the names would doubtless change, there would be fewer Balrogs (the ones present could still ride dragons), and the deul between Glorfindel and his Balrog would likely have had a lot more action and been more of a give and take.

Even in that account it is noted that before that day no man or elf had ever felled a Balrog, HOWEVER, it is essential to note that at the time of that writing Tolkien still regarded them as creatures or earthly corruptions bred by Melkor the Morgoth. Only later did he entirely discount that, realizing that they were in fact Demonic Spirits of Melkor's same race, albiet of lesser degree.

In Reply To
you know what, I guess I always assumed this was an earlier account, although I didn't know exactly how much earlier, once I read that Tolkien made the note about there never having been more than a few balrogs.

The account out of lost tales however, is the one I always chose to read and "believe" because it's so beautiful and has more detail. And Tolkien did write it, after all. In my head, I chose to reconcile the 'number of balrogs' issue by thinking that the balrog under Moria had grown considerably stronger by the 3rd age, and with the returning power of Sauron. Thus, I could believe that Gandalf was no slouch for having met his match...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 12 2013, 5:22am

Post #62 of 64 (112 views)
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Right you are. I actually meant to quote The Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You wrote:


In Reply To

Dragons are explicitly mentioned as having been part of its [Gondolin's] destruction in Fellowship





Actually, while the fall of Gondolin is mentioned a couple of times in LOTR (both in Book 2 of FotR and in the appendices), no such detail is given. However, in The Hobbit itself, Elrond tells Gandalf and Thorin, when talking about Orcrist and Glamdring, "They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago." That is likely what you were thinking of.

Of course, all of this is idle speculation, since this report is completely untrue. But that doesn't make it less fun to pass the time.




"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


vexx801
Rivendell


Jul 15 2013, 8:17pm

Post #63 of 64 (50 views)
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Gondolin References [In reply to] Can't Post

In the first film, Gondolin is mentioned twice. First in a conversation between Gandalf and Thorin in the troll cave:
"These swords were not made by any troll..." - Thorin
"Nor were they made by any smith among men. These were forged in Gondolin by the High Elves of the First Age.

Second by Elrond in Rivendell:
"This is Orcrist. The Goblin-Cleaver. A famous blade. Forged by the High Elves of the West. My kin. May it serve you well. And this is Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer. Sword of the High King of Gondolin. These swords were made for the Goblin wars of the First Age."

So in-film, perhaps a short flashback (as long as there is relevancy to the film) could work, and it is not as if Gondolin has not been mentioned. From these two film references, the audience could gather:

-There were wars in ancient past, in the First Age, such as the Goblin Wars.
-We know that there was a High King of Gondolin (who fans know to be Turgon), and that the High Elves of the West are mentioned.
-We know that Gondolin existed in the First Age.
-We know that these swords come from Gondolin and their history has briefly been mentioned (I am still of the mindset that Bilbo's knife was once Turin's knife)

And in the book, Gondolin, attacks from dragons, Elves and such are all mentioned:
"These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago..."

Also, it is mentioned several times in Riddles in the Dark that Bilbo's blade is of elvish make, and had come out of Gondolin. I believe we may get another mention or two of Gondolin elsewhere in the book too.

So if nothing else, while it may not be necessary it is possible to see:
-The High King of the Elves (Do we get the name Turgon in LotR Appendices or in LotR, name-dropped anywhere?)
-Goblin wars; dragons and goblins destroying Gondolin
-Maybe we see Orcrist and Glamdring getting snatched up from an elvish warrior by a dragon who is seeking plunder. Or maybe the blades are found by a dragon in the ruins of the wrecked city.

Point being - this is all very plausible. Does it fit the tone of The Hobbit? I think that's debatable. Is it necessary? Not really. Do I still want to see it, even if it's only in the Extended Edition? Oh you bet.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 16 2013, 6:43am

Post #64 of 64 (56 views)
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It is also worth noting that, while the name in connection with its original owner is off limits, Gothmog [In reply to] Can't Post

is a name of Sindarin origin. Thranduil is one of the mighty among the Sindar, and the name Gothmog means "The Dreadful Oppressor" in the tongue of his people, suggesting something of the terrible significance the Demons of Might had to those Elves.

Even without it specifically being stated, one would logically assume that the great demons mentioned as being servants of Morgoth in the accessible for film texts, and noted as being the greatest of all enemies to the Elves under Morgoth aside from Sauron, that they would have been involved in a leadership capacity in Morgoth's wars against the kingdoms of The Elves.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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