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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A question about the Necromancer and the general audience *SPOILERS*
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The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 8:50pm

Post #26 of 44 (258 views)
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I forgot about the moving statue [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The moving Nazgūl-statue in AUJ reminded me a little bit of the three-headed watcher statues from Cirith Ungol. The ones Sam could only pass because of the Phial of Galadriel.

I'm not sure if the Nazgūl-statue from AUJ was moving because it was a Nazgūl inside of it or if it's a magical thing like the Mordor watchers in the book. Perhaps we see some stone Nazgūl fighting the White Council? Like the stone soldiers from the last Harry Potter movie but much deadlier! After all we've got mountains that began moving and attacking each other why not a small statue? ;)


Did the Nazgul Radagast sees pop out of that statue or was there more than one Nazgul present??


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 6 2013, 9:02pm

Post #27 of 44 (252 views)
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I'm not sure but [In reply to] Can't Post

when Radagast enters Dol Guldur the statue that moves was on his left. The Witch King came out of a broken statue on Radagasts right. So the moving statue wasn't the Witch King I suppose.

Also there are more Nazgūl statues in Dol Guldur than the one we saw in AUJ.

That's the one from AUJ that moves when Radagast enters

And there is another one when Gandalf is there.

And here you can see Radagast, the Witch King and the statue one the right


There are three possibilities:

1.) The Witch-King was indeed the moving statue but changed position to attack Radagast from behind

2.) The moving statue was another Nazgūl

3.) The moving statue was just a moving statue


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 6 2013, 9:09pm

Post #28 of 44 (247 views)
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I like the idea [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
when Radagast enters Dol Guldur the statue that moves was on his left. The Witch King came out of a broken statue on Radagasts right. So the moving statue wasn't the Witch King I suppose.

Also there are more Nazgūl statues in Dol Guldur than the one we saw in AUJ.

That's the one from AUJ that moves when Radagast enters

And there is another one when Gandalf is there.

And here you can see Radagast, the Witch King and the statue one the right


There are three possibilities:

1.) The Witch-King was indeed the moving statue but changed position to attack Radagast from behind

2.) The moving statue was another Nazgūl

3.) The moving statue was just a moving statue


Of the nine all coming out of a statue at once in the DG conflict. With Sauron front and center of course! Cool


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jul 7 2013, 1:08am

Post #29 of 44 (220 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

It is one of their disguises, but it worked well visually in LotR, and is much more recognizable for casual moviegoers, who might not remember the few shots of them without cloaks in FotR. The nazgul in their riders in black disguise were incredibly well done, and let's be honest, just looked plain cool. Also, I would love to have a similar shot like this: http://images.wikia.com/...ul_at_Weathertop.png , but with Gandalf in the middle.

I understand why PJ chose for the non-disguised look in AUJ (having a black rider would be to strong a hint that Sauron is the necromancer, while the casual moviegoer might not recognize the Witch King in this form), but when Sauron is revealed, there is no reason not to go with their recognizable look.

Admittedly though, having the nine wraiths in their true form attack Gandalf could be visually cool too...


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 7 2013, 1:12am

Post #30 of 44 (220 views)
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About Sauron... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
when Sauron is revealed, there is no reason not to go with their recognizable look.



... I wonder if PJ will take this chance to present Sauron in his Annatar form? He intended to in ROTK before he changed his mind, so maybe this is an opportunity for him to break out that old design.

If Sauron is shown at all, that is.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jul 7 2013, 2:08am

Post #31 of 44 (210 views)
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If you recall [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
when Sauron is revealed, there is no reason not to go with their recognizable look.



... I wonder if PJ will take this chance to present Sauron in his Annatar form? He intended to in ROTK before he changed his mind, so maybe this is an opportunity for him to break out that old design.

If Sauron is shown at all, that is.


He was to be shown as attractive then all of a sudden transformed into his towering armored form. What if the reveal worked like that? Have Sauron appear attractive at first an Gandalf is confused by the appearance and lets his gaurd down and then BAM! Sauron makes his way back onto the scene in all his glory! Though I expect him to be more like a shadow in armor since he can't have a body.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 3:29am

Post #32 of 44 (200 views)
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Ring Wraiths [In reply to] Can't Post

I was always under the impression from bits peices and inference in LOTR that the 9 were not did not just appear as the Black Riders or Riders on Wings, but in fact appeared throughout ME history in different 'guises' to move about less conspicuously.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Jul 7 2013, 11:17am

Post #33 of 44 (167 views)
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That would be cool to see him in different shapes [In reply to] Can't Post

Annatar would be cool to confuse the White Council or at least Gandalf and Radagast because Galadriel might know that form (like he did with the smiths of Eregion and Celebrimbor).

And talking about different shapes. I don't think that we'll see the Nine in their black ropes. Why? Because it seemed to be something new when Saruman informs Gandalf in FOTR:

"They crossed the River Isen on Midsummer's Eve, disguised as riders in black."

It would be very odd if they already appeared in this disguise earlier. I think the roped statues is the only think that reminds us who they actual are
.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 7 2013, 6:08pm

Post #34 of 44 (162 views)
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It's not odd at all, in my opinion. [In reply to] Can't Post

If Gandalf had encountered the Ringwraiths during the time of The Hobbit, disguised as riders in black, then why does it contradict what Saruman says in FOTR? I don't think it does. Saruman could be confirming that what they encountered 60 years earlier, which turned out to be because of the Necromancer, are now back again with the very same disguise.

Coming soon! The first TORn Amateur Symposium, starts Sunday 21st July in the Reading Room. Closing date for essay submission Sunday 14th July, but even if you don't submit, join us for some interesting discussion on some different and personal ways of looking at Tolkien's work.




(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jul 7 2013, 6:11pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 7 2013, 7:42pm

Post #35 of 44 (154 views)
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It did seem [In reply to] Can't Post

that Gandalf reacted as if from recognition when Saruman mentioned 'riders in black'.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jul 7 2013, 9:31pm

Post #36 of 44 (127 views)
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exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 8:01am

Post #37 of 44 (102 views)
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I agree in the absolute with everything you have stated here. [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent postulates.

In Reply To
If I was writing the screen play for the Hobbit having already co written the LOTR screen play one element I would feel most comfortable about is turning over some of the nuances of the LOTR and investing them with depth and meaning. I give you four examples including the point raised here.

1) We know in LOTR Gandalf has been through Moria before and it holds fears for him. It would be good to see the reason for that line played out in the Hobbit.

2) We know Legolas takes upon himself the call to to Imladris and joins the fellowship. However we also know from the book Hobbit that his father is less inclined to a world view (in 1932 he did not know what one was) . We know from the trailer dialogue and AUJ that Swiss neutrality attitude will be played out. It would be good to see why Legolas disconnects from his fathers insularity and I think there is a very natural and organic way to achieve that.

3) Sauron will be on the table by the end of the first act of Gandalf's sub plot in DOS. I think it would be good to echo the appendices and give the audience the initial impression that he is defeated by the White Council to which film only goers will feel leaves tantalising loose ends . The drama, possibly in TABA, is we will see a glimpse of how wrong that is with Sauron gathering the nine and beginning the rebuilding of B D. It doesn't have to take long cinematically but it would be a nice twist for those at that level of interest and would give us some interesting visualisation.

4) Saruman is portrayed as a self important complacent do not rock the boat kind of character at the WC. As discussed elsewhere we expect him to be involved using CGI enhancements in the battle of DG but some enigmatic lines and nuanced playing from Chris Lee could show the first seeds of him being to interested in the arts of the enemy again without overplaying the matter.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 8 2013, 8:09am

Post #38 of 44 (95 views)
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Yes! Not only cool but novel accurate. Well, kinda, if you are replacing Dol Guldur with [In reply to] Can't Post

Weathertop. I will take my popcurn. . . well, curly fries (French fries/chips/ etc. ) at my local theatres "such Light and FLAME" as has not been seen since the warbeacons of olde.

In Reply To
It is one of their disguises, but it worked well visually in LotR, and is much more recognizable for casual moviegoers, who might not remember the few shots of them without cloaks in FotR. The nazgul in their riders in black disguise were incredibly well done, and let's be honest, just looked plain cool. Also, I would love to have a similar shot like this: http://images.wikia.com/...ul_at_Weathertop.png , but with Gandalf in the middle.

I Admittedly though, having the nine wraiths in their true form attack Gandalf could be visually cool too...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2013, 8:46am

Post #39 of 44 (86 views)
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On a side note... [In reply to] Can't Post

I know PJ planned to show him in his attractive form in RotK, but doesn't that technically go against book canon? Isn't Sauron unable to appear in that form anymore? That's my memory of it, anyway-- just curious.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 8 2013, 8:54am

Post #40 of 44 (78 views)
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Ask jeeves [In reply to] Can't Post

... er I mean Gollum, he saw him

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jul 8 2013, 10:29am

Post #41 of 44 (73 views)
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He was in "a" fair form as Annatar [In reply to] Can't Post

but it gets to a point where he can no longer take on any fair form. If memory serves, that was after his downfall during the destruction of Numenor.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 8 2013, 7:26pm

Post #42 of 44 (53 views)
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Yes it does. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
doesn't that technically go against book canon?


I hope we don't see his fair form (although it won't ruin the movie for me if it happens), but I wonder if PJ will see this as a chance to do what he didn't in ROTK.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jul 10 2013, 8:10am

Post #43 of 44 (27 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When Sauron is revealed he will show himself and probably the Nazgul in armor for the conflict. Mocap for the Necromancer is confirmed and the black rider look could work but isn't it only for an identity for the Nazgul when searching for the One?



Mocap doesn't mean Sauron will have a physical form. In fact the most likely scenario is that PJ sticks with the story he told on LoTR about Sauron being unable to regain physical form.

So the motion capture is likely going to result in some sort of ghostly essence, some sort of intangible spirit of evil. The motion capture suggests nothing more than Sauron will have a shape. It does not mean he will be revealed to have a physical, tangible form. PJ just gave us a trilogy in which he showed Sauron losing the ability to take a physical shape, had Saruman describe the fact he can not take a physical form, and spent three movies without ever allowing Sauron to regain a physical form. It wouldn't make sense at all to give him a physical form in The Hobbit.

I think you've been using your Jump To Conclusions mat about what that motion capture stuff means.


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jul 10 2013, 8:13am

Post #44 of 44 (34 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do you know anyone or think any of the general movie goers are ignorant as to the identity of the Necromancer? Obviously we know it is Sauron but I wonder if anyone doesn't know it. The Nazgul was a little obvious for a hint to me! I could see the design in AUJ throwing people off though. Do you think they were even trying to make the Necromancer thing a big movie reveal/shocker? It doesn't seem so to me.



I saw the movie with someone who had never read any of the books and had only seen the LoTR movies. He asked me about the Necromancer after the film was over. I said I didn't want to spoil it and asked him to guess who the Necromancer was. His guess was that the Necromancer was the Lord of the Nazgul. His reasoning being that he remembered that character being called a "witch king", and the one ghostly nazgul we saw in The Hobbit made him think all the nazgul must be in Dol Guldur.

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