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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 10 2013, 3:32pm
Post #176 of 198
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We do have a very active Reading Room
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where Tolkien's works are discussed. There's very little movie chat on that board, and vice versa - there's not a lot of chat about the books on the movie boards except to compare the similarities and differences.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 10 2013, 6:53pm
Post #177 of 198
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The text below is from a post I made on Feedback and I can see from how the conversation is going that it definitely applies here. We certainly understand that not everyone loves and agrees with everything about our site, our forums, or the actions of the Admins, and we appreciate constructive feedback. However, you don't get almost 10,000 forum members, 42,000+ twitter followers and 103,000 + facebook followers by doing a bunch of things wrong. Are we right for everyone? Of course not, Luckily there are a wealth of Tolkien-related sites on the internet that offer the whole spectrum from book to movie. We offer what we offer, we're very successful at it and we're very proud of it. We hope that the majority of the people who visit and stay enjoy it as much as we do!
*************
The founders of this site, and the majority of the staff, are huge fans of Tolkien, of PJ and of PJs Lord of the Rings movies, and are excited out of our skins about the Hobbit movies. None of us could have done what we do for so long if we felt more negative than positive about any of those things and, frankly I hope no one would dedicate a large chunk of their too-short life-span to something they felt negative about.
We do have occasional critical guest editorials like the one being referred to, and don't shy away from posting news that's less than flattering to the production. We also allow free discourse on those not so flattering topics. All points of view and discussion are welcome here as long as it's respectful and follows our ToS.
However, the overriding mission of TORn is to be here for people who are just as excited about Tolkien and, yes PJ, LOTR movies and The Hobbit as we are, and we're NOT going to apologize for that. We'll continue to have as friendly a relationship with WB and PJ as we do with the Tolkien Society, Tolkien archives and Bodleian Library. We'll continue to post upbeat stories along with occasional critiques and less flattering news as it arises. We'll add disclaimers to whatever stories our editors want to and we're not going to apologize for that either. We'll continue to welcome constructive criticism, and will continue to ignore rudeness, or demands that we, who have devoted over a decade of our lives to put together the best Hobbit/Tolkien/PJ/Movie combo site on the web, do anything.
We know we can't be everything to everyone, and we're not even going to try. But, we've had a ton of success being what we are, and that's pretty darned good if you ask me. I don't meant to sound harsh, and this is meant as a general statement and is not directed to anyone in particular, but if our love of PJ and his movies, our excitement about The Hobbit, or our website and how we run it is intolerable and frustrating to anyone, what in the world are you doing here? If it's not intolerable, then accept that TORn will be who we are and continue to do what we do best and if you have constructive ideas, please let us know!
Now, I don't know about any of you, but I'm going to get out from in front of this computer, go outside and enjoy life; then I'm going to come back and enjoy Tolkein/PJ/LOTR/Hobbit and TORn when I return! 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 10 2013, 9:15pm
Post #178 of 198
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More than one "crossed wire" . . . (?)
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I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. However, the first wrong is the one that sparks the problem, no? Therefore, if a moderator is going to come in to a discussion and "moderate", they should be fair in their judgment & enforcement. A moderator who arbitrarily picks one "side" to specifically "scold" in a discussion while disregarding the body of the discussion and how the problem actually started in the first place gives posters a sense of unfair treatment & enforcement which very likely causes added animosity between the two differing opinions as well as discourage fair discussions of likes & dislikes. This is why I asked for a more active role by the moderators (though my initial request was made to you while under the impression you were a moderator - doh!!!)
On "real world issues":
I may be wrong but it appears to me you are saying that art, culture, books & movies all are not "real world issues". I agree that we're not discussing water & air pollution, nuclear reactors or anonymous drone strikes but to say these topics are not "real world issues" would be to dismiss & deny their substantial impact on the "real world".
Further on "uprisings":
When I referred to "uprising", I did not mean one specifically on these boards and I think we may have got our wires crossed here. I meant that if enough people do not like how the movies are being made yet a site that is "forged by and for fans of J.R.R. Tolkien", not Peter Jackson, uses constant "positive" propaganda to suss dismayed fans of Tolkien from making well-founded, critical statements (which you should not confuse with "negative attitudes") an uprising of those dismayed fans, using their "purchasing power" as leverage, may be warranted to get their message to the people who that well-founded criticism is intended while pushing "past" the somewhat overwhelming amount of "positive" propaganda.
I agree with you that people causing an uprising because they don't like a little something here & there isn't a good thing. However, take what I said in my previous paragraph and apply it here since that is what I originally meant. I think it is somewhat dismissive and belittling when a person or group's wide-sweeping & well-founded concerns about the movies are considered "a little something here and there". I'm going to assume you were referring to things on the message boards like the "hater" & "fanboy" comments when you said "a little something here and there" but please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
I'll believe you when you say "we don't just push the positives" if you can point out a distinct instance in which TORn actually "pushed the negatives". (Again, we're not discussing "attitudes".)
On merchandise:
Please don't be offended because I think we got our wires crossed again. I believe you may have thought I was referring to the manufacturer of the movie merchandise (Gentle Giant, WETA,…,etc.) you have given keen insight and a lot of good information on. That is not the kind of manufacturers and, for the most, merchandise I was referring to.
Simply replace the word "manufacturers" with the WB, MGM, PJ,…,etc. while replacing "merchandise" with the finished product of the movie(s) to put my comments in the correct context.
Ok, it is one thing for a person on a Tolkien fan site to share things they like with other fans and to inform them of certain merchandise. (Btw, that is sincerely appreciated by me and, no doubt, many others.) However, it goes far beyond and becomes an entirely different thing when a fan site promotes an overwhelming amount of "positive" propaganda, while disregarding or putting a "positive" spin on almost all of the "negatives", to create & stoke fan interest in the movies as well as sell more merchandise of which TORn's non-profit gets a finder's fee, commission &/or percentage. There are those at TORn who receive perks & preferential treatment from the studio & crew for what appears to be their positive involvement with fans and their endorsements of the movies. Perhaps there might even be WB or New Line people actually "volunteering" as TORn writers, staff &/or moderators. These kind of assumptions, though possibly incorrect, do not appear improbable and are a direct result of too much emphasis on the "positives" when more than just a few "negatives" here and there are being, in many's opinion, unfairly disregarded, dismissed or belittled.
Those are some of TORn's, not your's, apparent overall motivations from my perspective. The colloquialism "if it walks, talks & acts like a duck, it probably is a duck" is a good way to describe the basis of my hypothetical assumptions.
I never said you personally were a willing party to any of that and I was not calling your character or actions into question but, reading my post again, I can see where you could have easily made that assumption. I obviously didn't clarify as well as I thought in my previous post. For that confusion, I sincerely apologize since no personal offense was meant towards you.
If you'd like to discuss any of this further, I'd be more than happy to start a thread to specifically & logically outline (not rant) the majority, if not all, of my concerns regarding Tolkien, Peter Jackson, WB, the books, the movies, the merchandise, creative license, artistic respect, adaptations, conflicts of interest and anything else pertinent while you could do the same with your concerns. As I've said before, I'm not averse to admitting I'm wrong if proven so (in fact, I welcome it) and would like to think I keep a very open mind with regard to other people's opinions.
It has been a sincere pleasure talking with you and apologies again for the confusion.
-Cheers & Best Wishes
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 10 2013, 9:25pm
Post #179 of 198
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This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about . . .
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It's hard to argue with ad hominem numbers like that.
Apparently you are doing everything right or are perhaps masking it well enough as such. No apologies requested just fairness & common sense!
So, when TORn says "Forged By & For Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien" in their headline, I & many others expect exactly that and it's hard for me to understand why anyone wouldn't understand that.
But, here we go again, right on time - defense, resistance & delusion . . . 
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
(This post was edited by g-stormcrow on Jul 10 2013, 9:31pm)
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 10 2013, 9:28pm
Post #180 of 198
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Should I resign all of my "dislikes" about the movies to the Reading Room?
Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of the invite . . .
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
(This post was edited by g-stormcrow on Jul 10 2013, 9:30pm)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 10 2013, 9:56pm
Post #181 of 198
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that we have lots of different forums here, for different likes and dislikes. Conversations about the Hobbit movies, positive and negative, are conducted here, and conversations about Tolkien's works, likes and dislikes, are conducted in the Reading Room.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 10 2013, 10:00pm
Post #182 of 198
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We typically don't over-parse our discussions
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and avoid a "gotcha" mentality. If you think anyone, including a moderator, is violating our Terms of Service, you're welcome to contact the site owners or another moderator.
As Altaira said, we are who we are, and there are many who appear to agree with what we're doing. It's not possible to appeal to every Tolkien fan, but there's lots of space on the internet for fans to find a home that suits them. If it's TORN, that's great, but if not, it's great that Tolkien fans can find their own place that's comfortable for them. We won't change who we are in a futile attempt to meet everyone's definition of what it means to be a Tolkien fan.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jul 10 2013, 10:04pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 11 2013, 5:42am
Post #183 of 198
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Whoa! Dude, hit the reset button
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You've come barreling in here like a bull in a china shop, criticizing the site, criticizing the moderators and criticizing the "vocal majority" who dares *like* the movies - not the most gracious entrance into someone else's house I've ever seen.
It's interesting that all you've chosen to focus on in your few firsts post are a few instances of perceived injustice towards those who dare "dislike" the movies, and other perceived negatives about the site, the other Admins and myself. We ("lovers" and "haters" alike) get along quite well here! We just finished several good discussions about how there are just as many people who perceive a bias towards PJ as those who perceive that the Hobbit board has become far too negative, and how for those who aren't on the absolute edges of either 'side', it makes for fun and stimulating conversations (those on the edges - on both sides - sadly tend to avoid the Hobbit forum altogether). If the Admins, or the site, were truly trying to persecute those who dislike the movies, it seems the people who like the movies wouldn't have any cause to complain about negativity - but they do. I believe that's a good sign - it means that both perspectives are coming through and are not being drowned out by the other. And, when it comes down to it, no one is forcing anyone to frequent our site, or 'put up' with anyone, or any perceived bias, here. Everyone is free to come and go as they please as long as they abide by the rules posted on the front door. It's nice that so many come, like it, and stay.
It's also interesting that someone who decries how far we are from being a site "Forged By & For Fans of J.R.R. Tolkien" has made 100% of their posts on the *gasp* homage to PJ Hobbit board, and hasn't made one post concentrating on Tolkien (even though there are plenty of opportunities here to do so). If someone loves Tolkien so much, and thinks we're such a 'defensive, resistant, delusional' site, why bother? There are a number of excellent sites that concentrate almost exclusively on Tolkien and the books. Life is way too short to spend any time on something so beneath one, isn't it?
I hope complaining, polarizing one group vs. the other and psuedo-name calling isn't all you came here to do. I hope you can enjoy the discussions we have here on the Hobbit board, and the many other wonderful discussions on the other forums too. Here's to hitting the reset button and seeing what else you have to contribute!
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 2:12pm
Post #184 of 198
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Well, just call me a nomadic dwarf half-invited to tea and disregard the bull
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he threw me on his back somewhere along the way after wandering other rooms of this house for a while. I'll agree that he's sometimes a bit clumsy and has a tendency to get off the chain when he's angered but he's got a good heart and really does try, in his life experiences, to do the right thing by being fair & honest. He does keep grunting something like "this town needs either a shake-up or a lobotomy". I really hope in all of that criticism he didn't break anything of value.
I've appreciated many things about TORn's house in the past after being invited in though frankly haven't been treated very welcome since 2010 after several attempts to politely discuss concerns I and many other previous Ringers (aka consumers) were starting to have with the 2nd trilogy. Perhaps it was getting the many "perceived" tongue lashings from fellow Ringers to trust in PJ, shut up, go away, don't watch the movies, make your own and get a life that was the fateful beginning of "negativity". All that in spite of the fact I was "positively" geeked-out then that Jackson was returning & adding the White Council happenings. You could say that before then I felt somewhat warm & cozy with no bull in sight.
It was obviously my false impression that TORn & Ringers would help make these 2nd set of movies as respectful to J.R.R. & his greatly entertaining tales as possible in light of their fandom as well as the movies being widely touted as "authentic" homages to the author. I thought TORn & Ringers would help by giving both positive & critical feedback regarding the movies while doing their best to temper it and not act as stiflers to the crews obvious and considerable gifts & creativity.
Btw, I don't enjoy heated or negative debates and there's no doubt that's exactly how you'd like to paint me. No worries, I'll just keep pushing forward taking heart knowing that there are still people & things worth defending out of respect for their integrity and what they have given me and many others. I get inspiration from J.R.R. who spoke Latin over Vatican II mass while Simon stood next to him - awkward, embarrassed & feeling out of place - not understanding how important it was to his grandfather & many others whose actions were undoubtedly painted as negative. (Before anyone makes any assumptions, I'm not a catholic and I'm not anyone's grandfather - yet.) Sure, that all probably sounds a bit corny or like a line from a certain movie we all know of but that is who I am. Definitely, no apologies on that.
Regarding posting elsewhere on the boards: give me a chance! Sheesh, I just got here!
Regarding "why bother?": Simple answer: Because I care. I was a Ringer once and know that they, as a group, have the greatest ability to inform the studio & crew of what many believe is important feedback. (Kudos!) Don't we all want the end product of these movie to be worthy of the author, the movie crew and their fans? Once these movies are done, there's no more chance for any of us to give any feedback so time is short or already gone. Life is too short but I'm not going to look back and say, "I might have had a chance to help at the time but I didn't care or try enough." Doing that would be "so beneath one", wouldn't it.
And, as an fyi, the complaining, polarizing one group vs. the other and psuedo-name calling has apparently been on these boards quite a long time before I even got here so don't try & blame me for any of that - look under your own roof for the source. Also, I will not apologize for defending someone's right to state their opinions without being called a pseudo-name like "hater". If doing so somehow justifies you trying to brand me with the pseudo-name "polarizer" you really have an upside-down understanding of me and my intentions. Maybe after you get used to me you'll change your mind? Beyond that, don't blame me for the poles that were already here and that TORn helped create & keep up in the first place. I don't think even you believe these boards are as happy a home as you proclaim them to be and as we'd both like them to be - even your post appears to suggests that but tries to mask it.
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
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AncalagontheBlack
Rohan
Jul 11 2013, 2:20pm
Post #185 of 198
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Since 90% of the filming and likely editorial decisions were completed last year and the other 10% in a couple of weeks what could or would likely be changed at this point? Serious question.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 11 2013, 3:07pm
Post #186 of 198
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The nomadic dward is most welcome
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Not so much the bull (literally and figuratively  ).
Just because you've seen what you perceive to be complaining, name-calling, etc., doesn't make it right for you to come here and do the same, so far targeted only at people you disagree with. It's particularly worrisome to me as an Admin that you called me delusional, which is against our terms of service, so soon after joining. Not the best sign. If your posting style was the same before, then the tongue-lashings may have been a defensive reaction brought on by your own behaviour. If so, I'm not saying those reactions were justified - if someone felt insulted (like I did), they should contact an Admin just like you should if you perceive you're being insulted. We can't read every post here and we can't fix what we don't know about.
I highly recommend perusing our Terms of Service when you get a chance, as well as the "our halls" sticky at the top of the Hobbit board and this post.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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AncalagontheBlack
Rohan
Jul 11 2013, 4:31pm
Post #188 of 198
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Thanks for the answer.
I can tell you I am not happy with every choice made in the productions. With the LotR some changes from the books I liked better, some I am neutral on and some I didn't like but overall the heart of the story was told and Middle Earth was brought to life. I am sure even on the likes and dislikes there is very real and understandable disagreement. For example, the characterization of Denethor and Faramir I was okay with. I could see to much exposition would have needed to take place to explain the breaking of Denthor's will and spirit through the responsibility of years of defending Gondor and using the Palantir with Sauron manipulating visions of inevitable doom. Same with Faramir, by the time the EEs were out and the series complete, I could see the changes needed to continue the momentum of the Ring as the great threat it was and I thought his character was done justice. On the other and, loving Treebeard as I do, I hated seeing him turned into an indecisive and reluctant individual to act, was bothered by the Elves at Helm's Deep, and the scrubbing bubble Army of the Dear used to expedite Aragorn's plot line and winning the battle of the Pelenor Fields. In the end, I was happy with the trilogy but one thing I think I found out was I was more certain about what I did and didn't like vs the book until after it was complete and I could hear some of the director reasoning on the changes. The changes to Denethor and Faramir, I came around on and the others I wish were still done differently but that is life and I am not the director. I thought RoTK had the most changes but surprisingly it was the most celebrated at the Box Office and with awards.
As someone who has read not just the Hobbit and the LotR but the Children of Hurin, the Silmarillion and the many volumes of the Histories of Middle Earth, the world of Middle Earth is as important and entertaining to me as the stories. One change with the Hobbit that I know people will likely always be on one side or the other side of is the expansion of the story beyond what is just contained in the book. I am in the happy camp about that so I know that until I see all three movies and how things are woven together, it is impossible to make judgements on any deviations from the book when take out of the context of the entire project. Some things may seem much clearer as we go along and I don't let myself get caught up in at this point. In AUJ, I really don't like how the Stone Giants were done and I know that won't change because it really isn't tied into the greater story. Azog, I am not sure about because I don't know where its going and I love Dain and the Drwarvish history and I hated seeing Dain getting robbed of such a big event as slaying Azog but I hoping more will be told and the compression of events and his use might seem more important as plot points and make me feel different about the changes. Just about everything else I was happy with including Radagast and we don't know the whole story yet. I fully see how any and all of this is upsetting to people who just wanted the book and nothing more. I can see why it doesn't matter for some waiting on all three movies or six for that matter to look at the whole context to criticize because the expansion itself is a problem. For those that just wanted the book as it is closely as possible, changes and tonal differences than what was expected are going to be a problem.
Dialog choices, visuals, and the use of CGI are ripe for debate because they stand alone as elements of the movie making process. It is good to have the debate and I enjoy it but I don't see the attack on PJ's skill and talent as useful. I am a life long Incredible Hulk comic reader and fan and was disappointed with the two movies but I never felt the need to bash Ang Lee or Louis Leterrier or their movie making abilities. They both have done movies I really liked and although I was disappointed in how movie adaptations of one of my favorite fictional characters was done, it wasn't because of their talent or ability. People have different visions and in the movie making process, I imagine there are so many elements and it is such a dynamic event on a huge scale movie even a great director might not make the film I individually wanted. If I were Francis Ford Copala, I might feel I have same basis to comment on someones directorial ability but maybe not even then. Since I am most definitely not, I just leave it to what I like and dislike and leave the individual movie makers out of it. I think that is why you see threads get heated sometimes because the debate drifts beyond the criticism of the movie element, plot point, visual representation, etc. being discussed to the dislike being aimed directly at the director or others.
(This post was edited by AncalagontheBlack on Jul 11 2013, 4:38pm)
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 5:15pm
Post #189 of 198
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None of us could have done what we do for so long if we felt more negative than positive about any of those things and, frankly I hope no one would dedicate a large chunk of their too-short life-span to something they felt negative about.
Translation based on your posting style: if you don't feel positively about everything in the movies and want to discuss your dislikes (i.e.: negatives) on TORn you should either go away and/or get a life.
This statement = delusion because you're openly suggesting that someone who wants to discuss their dislikes / negatives about the movies at length on TORn doesn't have a life and should go elsewhere and get one. Pretty rude in an off-hand, "positive" way if you ask me.
However you care to slice it, that statement really doesn't sound like a welcome invitation for open discussion & constructive criticism of the movies.
In all fairness, you initially took my words out-of-context and turned them into something entirely different from their intention.(dislikes = negatives / concerns = complaining) That seems to be the quite the modus operandi around here and probably why there is so much animosity & polarization between differing viewpoints when it comes to the movies.
I just started commenting on these boards with this one thread because I found it as a link on TORn. I also read the discussion on the "Mouth of Sauron" and "Lobster Ice Cream" but this one made me want to comment because I noticed that the majority of people weren't being fair to the OP in a similar way to how I have been treated in the past here on TORn.
Elessar commented that AinurOlorin has some great, engaging posts. I visited one of the threads he had commented on about a movie rumor (Gondolin) and thankfully found that the whole discussion was, for the most part, very intelligent, witty and a whole lot of fun. I even commented on it to tell the OP (baldog?) I liked almost everything about it and didn't even get into whether I liked/disliked the rumor that was posted.
See? I'm not such a complaining, name-calling scoundrel. 
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 11 2013, 8:25pm
Post #190 of 198
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I agree. Nothing is going to be changed at this point.
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Since 90% of the filming and likely editorial decisions were completed last year and the other 10% in a couple of weeks what could or would likely be changed at this point? Serious question.
Not only that, I don't believe that Peter Jackson would change anything that he was set on at the behest of fans, though he may toss us the occasional bone in the form of something right out of the book. PJ makes movies in accordance with his own vision and while he may change his mind during the process, it is still his mind. I know some people believe that Arwen's role in LOtR was modified because of fan complaints but I don't believe it. I think they looked at the footage and decided it didn't work.
And I really don't think he has time right now to lurk on TORN, if ever he does.
Finally, there would never be any kind of consensus on this site about what changes should be made.
(This post was edited by Noria on Jul 11 2013, 8:27pm)
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 8:36pm
Post #191 of 198
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It's a sincere pleasure to hear your overall reasoning and detailed, intelligent opinions on the movies. Thank you for sharing them with me.
I agree with you whole-heartedly that Middle Earth was brought to life visually almost to perfection in the LotR trilogy. I personally have never disputed PJ's visual directing talents and believe I have fairly given him credit where I thought it was due. ME was absolutely breathtaking & vivid in LotR! I also think the costumes, props, CGI & casting (Fran, I believe on that last one) were all handled exceptionally well to the point of near perfection. Imo, a Tolkien fan couldn't really unashamedly ask for more when it came to those aspects of the LotR trilogy.
I have an idea about the exposition of Denethor conundrum that's seems relatively easy & comprehensive. Perhaps showing Denethor looking into his Palantir right before Gandalf & Pippin walk in or possibly when before Denethor arrives to praise Boromir & ignore Faramir after their victory in Ithilien (sp.?). Either/both scenarios could have been handled rather quickly with some facial expressions & possible mumblings from Denethor, the creepy One Ring voice of Sauron and some visions seen in the orb of that supposed inevitable doom Sauron was manipulating the steward with. To make it work easily, the Denethor/Palantir scenario would have to play out after Pippin looks into Saruman's orb since most of the general details of what it is & how it works was explained at that time. I may be totally off on and over-simplifying it so let me know if you see any problems with doing that.
As for Faramir, I thought they treated him rather harshly imo. In the books he was a man who was a student of Gandalf's and proved that he retained much more of his wisdom. Because of the decision to add more emphasis on the tempting & evil power of the ring, not only was Faramir's character changed from a true-hearted man that would not take the One Ring even if he found it laying by the side of the road, the One Ring (which imo should also be considered a character) was changed, too. Movie Faramir came across to me as kind of a daddy's boy who had too much indecision & inner conflict with his conscience.
With regard to Treebeard's character, he was turned into an indecisive and reluctant individual in what way(s)? I didn't notice him as that way (at least, not more so than in the book) but I'm definitely interested to hear your thoughts on his portrayal in the movies.
Elves at Helm's Deep bothered me the most because it was the first time that an army of Men would be pitted alone and against evil forces. Kind of like their first moment to shine without ethereal help. It also didn't make much sense that elves who were leaving ME would come to the aid of Rohan though the "we come to honor the ancient alliance between Elves & Men" did tie it up decently. Could've done without the shield-surfing though if you're going through the trouble of writing in elves fighting at Helm's Deep you might as well show them doing something amazingly "cool". Otherwise, what would be the purpose of writing them in there?
Scrubbing bubble Army of the Dead (lol) seemed to me pretty cheesey because they just swept through everything in about 10 seconds. No orcs drowning in the river after fleeing from them in terror - just Gothmog's scared mug turning to run and somehow escaping the Army only to be later diced up between Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas in an audience pleasing "Yeah, got that sucka!" moment.
I have read all of the books several times (except HOME) and love listening while at work to my mp3 player which I've loaded with the entirety of The Sil box set narrated by Martin Shaw, as well as the BBC's radio plays of TH & LotR. The Sil was a real beast to completely understand after reading the book three separate times. Then I luckily found & bought the CD box set about 15 years ago and after a few listens, the somewhat confusing parts became 1000x clearer. (Thank you, Martin Shaw!) I'm the kind of reader who digests words on the page often slowly and multiple times to conjure up sharp visuals in my head and to also connect parallels with other parts of the story.
I can understand and appreciate that you feel the world of Middle Earth's is as important & entertaining as the stories. I'm a bit different in the sense that, before reading The Hobbit, I really wasn't interested in fantasy tales involving elves, dwarves, etc. nor the various worlds they were brought to life in. My main motivation for reading The Hobbit at first was for extra credit in 4th grade and, due to it being homework, I wasn't too thrilled and retained very little of what I read. It wasn't until I read it again at 15 y/o that I realized the wisdom, charm & history of Tolkien's world. It kept referring to wars, weapons & character's from ancient times that really sparked my curiosity and helped keep my interests. Gandalf is and will always be my favorite ME character due to his timeless wisdom and I think the LotR movies did his character almost complete justice but I'm definitely not feeling the same way about him in AUJ.
I didn't like the stone giants, either. They seemed too much like they were taken from "The Neverending Story", the company's interaction with them did nothing to maintain that coveted "suspension of disbelief" throughout the scene.
Unfortunately, I found a great deal of the Radagast subplot way too OTT silly. The spiders who attacked Rhosgobel (sp.?) looked like they could've came in at any time through any one of the various sunroofs on his hovel. The bird-poop running down his face & the bunny sled didn't help much while his riding across the hills as a diversion for the company didn't even look like he was trying or being very effective because he kept leading the following orcs back to the company. I've only watched AUJ once so I could be wrong on that last diversion part however that was the impression I got.
Again, I've never tried to attack PJ on his skill or talent level as a visual artist. I just want him to stand by his original words of respect towards the professor which he humbly convinced so many Tolkien fans, including myself, he would maintain throughout these movies.
This has gotten way too long so I'll stop here and take a breather. I can go further into my overall reasoning and opinions if you like. The rest of my concerns have to do mostly with artistic license & respect (examples on those can be given, too) including specific quotes from J.R.R. & Christopher Tolkien as well as the cast & crew of TH movies.
Let me know if you're interested in any of that, if you've found something interesting to discuss about these posts or anything interesting you may have forgotten to add previously, please post it up.
It was a sincere pleasure discussing these topics with you and I look forward to talking with you again perhaps in the near future.
-Thanks Again & Best Wishes
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 8:45pm
Post #192 of 198
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that you made your opinions known to me in a civil, non-condescending manner?
Thanks for your understanding and obvious "positivity".
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
(This post was edited by g-stormcrow on Jul 11 2013, 8:47pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 11 2013, 9:20pm
Post #193 of 198
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I can say no right where you're concerned. I know the definition of insanity and I'd like to keep mine, thank you very much. I just didn't want to be accused of not trying, as there seem to be a lot of accusations going around in the past few days.
You obviously came here with a rather large chip on your shoulder and an agenda. Your tactics include twisting the words of the moderators and dissing us and the site, no matter what we say, somehow thinking that's going to help accomplish what you want to accomplish.
Good luck with that.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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g-stormcrow
Bree
Jul 11 2013, 10:05pm
Post #194 of 198
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No delusions or agendas here (I think)
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I'd like to keep my insanity, too.
Thanks for trying and wishing me good luck.
-Best Wishes 
Gandalf receives no welcome at all when he re-enters Meduseld. He stands before King Theoden perceived to be a meddler, trouble-maker, and bearer of woes. Such has been the success of Grima Wormtongue.
"Ill news is an ill guest."
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens
Jul 14 2013, 6:02am
Post #195 of 198
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I can say no right where you're concerned. I know the definition of insanity and I'd like to keep mine, thank you very much. I just didn't want to be accused of not trying, as there seem to be a lot of accusations going around in the past few days.
You obviously came here with a rather large chip on your shoulder and an agenda. Your tactics include twisting the words of the moderators and dissing us and the site, no matter what we say, somehow thinking that's going to help accomplish what you want to accomplish.
Good luck with that. Whoa there, don't get your knickers all a twiiter! Does that sound like a familiar refrain of a certain style? A chip and an agenda is an unfairly defensive characterization. Isn't casting aspersions and placing an intent upon another person in this manner against some TOS or other? Where you see a problem, I see someone trying to objectively come to the aid of those who feel their opinions are dismissed and belittled because they disagree with the party line, and is then pigeonholed and pushed into a corner for the effort.
I believe you play the game of which you accuse others very well, thinking that will help. Good luck with that.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 14 2013, 6:05am)
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jul 16 2013, 7:02pm
Post #196 of 198
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MouthofSauron, I just noticed your rude, condescending reply.
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If you don't understand an argument that is being put to you (others did, by the way), you can always ask. Resorting to insults about someone's language skills is more likely to highlight your own limitations, rather than those of the person you are insulting.
For what it's worth, I was using the same definition of 'fantasy' as the one you posted.
Leave out the insults in future; this forum is supposed to be for fun.
Yes, most of all films are fiction or based on nonfictional events but that does not mean ALL films are fantasy. Please look up words on google or in a dictionary if you are unsure of their meaning.
fan·ta·sy
Noun
The faculty or activity of imagining things that are impossible or improbable.
Verb
Imagine the occurrence of; fantasize about.
-That in no way, shape or form describes all movies.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jul 17 2013, 5:54am
Post #197 of 198
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it wasn't a insult it was stating facts
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my own limitations? so you can insult others but you come down on others who do the same? you really set an example... The reply was to a user who claimed all films are fantasy, that simply is not true. There are categories in-which films fall under, i guess i have to repeat myself...Drama, war, romance, documentary, fantasy. AUJ is a fantasy film, it takes place in a world which never existed with characters and people who never existed. To say that "all films are fantasy" therefore AUJ should have "toned down" its fantastical scenes is not a valid point or argument.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 17 2013, 1:17pm
Post #198 of 198
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Anyone who thinks they're being insulted should contact an Admin and we'll help you sort it out.
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