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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Gandalf die? [spoilers]

QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jul 1 2013, 8:28pm

Post #1 of 21 (1274 views)
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Will Gandalf die? [spoilers] Can't Post

I was thinking about the moment where Galadriel apparently carries a weak Gandalf from Dol Guldur and was playing with the idea that he could die. My initial thought was that perhaps Galadriel possesses the power to bring him back but then I thought back to Radagast and Sebastian...

In this scene Sebastian the hedgehog apparently dies. Radagast is clearly very upset by this and removes the crystal from his staff and holds it up to the hedgehog's mouth. It then fills with blackness and the hedgehog lives. Could this crystal possess the power to bring back the dead? Perhaps Radagast brings Gandalf back, or maybe Galadriel uses this crystal? Speculating further, perhaps the overwhelming power necessary to bring Gandalf back causes the crystal to explode, breaking Radagast's staff into the shape that we see it in FotR, with the crystal exploded and gone they no-longer have this power and they're unable to save Radagast (who we assume will die). Then I thought of the Necromancer...

The Necromancer apparently has the power to raise the dead, so it's not impossible that he holds some sort of tool or magic to resurrect Gandalf?

These are all highly speculative, of course, but is it possible for the Istari to possess the power to resurrect the dead? When we consider Tolkien's view of afterlife in Middle-earth is it even remotely feasible? Surely Illuvatar wouldn't allow it.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 1 2013, 8:42pm

Post #2 of 21 (603 views)
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Yes, Gandalf will die ... in FotR [In reply to] Can't Post

But not before.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 1 2013, 9:11pm

Post #3 of 21 (549 views)
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But don't worry - [In reply to] Can't Post

- he comes back in TT
.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 1 2013, 9:13pm

Post #4 of 21 (535 views)
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Wow, that's a shock! [In reply to] Can't Post

Who'd a thunk it? Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Greypilgrim
Bree

Jul 1 2013, 9:30pm

Post #5 of 21 (469 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf will not die in the hobbit. Impossible.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 1 2013, 10:16pm

Post #6 of 21 (442 views)
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No, I'm sure he won't [In reply to] Can't Post

His return in Two Towers is a huge moment in the later story - they devalue that if they turn him into a sort of boomerang with a pointy hat. For myself, I didn't see the business with the hedghog as bringing back the dead. I thought the darkness that filled the crystal was meant to be the black magic that was affecting the forest. Radagast drew it out, the hedgehog revived and the spiders were driven back.

I doubt if even the Necromancer raises the dead, as such. Necromancy is supposed to be the power to commune with spirits. The Witch King in the films appears to be more like a ghost. He doesn't have a physical body. Given Tolkien's own beliefs I don't think he would have given the power of resurrection to any of the characters he created - of course, that's not to say they wouldn't do it in the films, but - well, we'll see. I hope they don't


malickfan
Gondor


Jul 1 2013, 10:57pm

Post #7 of 21 (438 views)
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Of Course he will [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf dies leg wrestling a werewolf in the attack On Dol Goldor, haven't you read The Appendices? Wink

But Seriously...terrible Idea, that would dimish his actual death in FOTR, make it feel even more like a LOTR retread, and make Thorin, Fili and Kili's sacfrices less emotional. I sincerely hope Jackson is above taking the word 'Necromancer' litereally there is enough non Tolkien baggage in these films already, without something so cliched cluttering up the story even more.

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


flameofudun
Lorien

Jul 2 2013, 12:48am

Post #8 of 21 (356 views)
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Never gonna happen [In reply to] Can't Post

Not even a possibility

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jul 2 2013, 3:21am

Post #9 of 21 (326 views)
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nope [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was thinking about the moment where Galadriel apparently carries a weak Gandalf from Dol Guldur and was playing with the idea that he could die.



What? Crazy

LOL


DanielLB
Immortal


Jul 2 2013, 7:20am

Post #10 of 21 (315 views)
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In case you missed the news story back in January: [In reply to] Can't Post

Link to thread.


Quote
While talking to Empire in September, Ian McKellen hinted that the White Council’s assault on Dol Guldur, in which Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond and Galadriel and Radagast take on the Necromancer’s foul forces, might not end well for the Grey Wizard. Obviously he won’t expire, but could he be taken out of action for a while? “There was a mocked-up doll of Gandalf that Cate [Blanchett] was carrying — she obviously couldn’t carry me — and we decided to call it Michael Gambon,” McKellen said. Well, as Galadriel said in An Unexpected Journey: “If you ever need my help, I will come.” Sounds like she keeps her promise.


Smile

It also suggests that Gandalf won't die, sorry QT!


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jul 2 2013, 7:20am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jul 2 2013, 8:02am

Post #11 of 21 (269 views)
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duh! of course he dies didn't you know?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Radagast finally washes the bird poo off his hair and takes a bath, when he's done he realizes galadriel has stolen all his clothes in hopes of seeing him naked so he steals gandalf's clothes and becomes the grey wizard!


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


trqn13
Bree


Jul 2 2013, 8:27am

Post #12 of 21 (252 views)
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of course he will [In reply to] Can't Post

He'll get trampled by a passing oliphaunt during the battle of 5 armies Wink

"Give me your name, Horse Master, and I shall give you mine"


Rostron2
Gondor


Jul 2 2013, 4:37pm

Post #13 of 21 (163 views)
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Not gonna happen [In reply to] Can't Post

At least not in any of the Hobbit films. I do wonder if he'll have his arm in a sling after the BO5A.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 2 2013, 9:17pm

Post #14 of 21 (129 views)
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Like! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 3 2013, 2:53am

Post #15 of 21 (99 views)
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Well I guess Gandalf won't die then [In reply to] Can't Post

But still, nice theories QuackingTroll. You've received a lot of criticism but your points about Galadriel and Radagast seem to make a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if Radagast's stone comes in to play with some dying character or other, just not Gandalf. We'll have to wait and see. Until December,

- flurgaburgburrahobbit

"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 3 2013, 2:55am

Post #16 of 21 (119 views)
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I believe that both Ilúvatar and Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be fine with resurrection of the dead. There is a common misperception on this forum that necromancy means to raise the dead. In this post I hope to try and clear that up a bit. To start out let's look at some lines from The Silmarillion.

Now as a devout Christian and Catholic, something that Tolkien believed is that evil things could not come into being on their own, but that everything evil is a twisted and corrupted version of something good. That in the end, Evil is only a cheap copy of the original Good. He actually displays this belief in his writings, especially concerning the origin of orcs. Melkor could not "create" anything but at best "mutate" the things created by Eru into his own evil devices. "thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves...and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion" - The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of Elves". Tolkien used the origins of the orcs as a literary device to show that all evil is a corruption of the good created by God. "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: '...And thou, Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me...'" - The Silmarilllion: Ainulindale

Now let us examine the topic of necromancy. By definition, a necromancer is one who communes (or tries to commune) with the dead. Or, as Radagast puts it in AUJ, "one who can summon spirits of the dead." In the hobbit films it is possible that they expanded this (as they do in zombie movies) to "one who can summon spirits of the dead to possess their dead bodies and make them seem alive." (this is called zombification or reanimation). This would be very dark and evil indeed, but I think that what Radagast does with the hedgehog is quite different. It would be absurd to assume that Radagast summons the spirit of the hedgehog and reanimates the animal as a zombie. It would also be absurd that the Istari should fight black magic, with black magic...there must be something else. Although the hedgehog scene is obviously not from Tolkien, I believe the same sort of thing, or something very similar is found in The Lord of the Rings (though with a character far more beloved then Sebastian).

Now as I said before, Tolkien was a very religious man, and so he read and knew the Bible. In the New Testament there are many times when Jesus or his Apostles raise the dead back to life. Resurrection is a something that brings a dead person back to true life. In the Lord of the Rings something like resurrection can be found when Gandalf is brought back from the dead by Ilúvatar. This is certainly not "summoning spirits from the dead through black magic" by any means. Resurrection is the original good, that is twisted into something evil with necromancy and reanimation. With the seeming resemblance of the good and the evil, the resurrection and the reanimation, it is not surprising at all that many of us tend to think of both as something evil, where in reality we couldn't be further off the mark.

Well I hope this post helped to clear up the difference for you QT, and anyone else who may have been wondering about this.

Happy Hobbiting! Until December, flurgaburburrahobbit.

"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jul 3 2013, 3:02am)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 3 2013, 5:07am

Post #17 of 21 (98 views)
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Jackson plays by his own rules. [In reply to] Can't Post

Your post is well-written and researched, and makes perfect sense. But...

Tolkien would never have countenanced Aragorn beheading an emissary under a truce, just for an example. Jackson will do a lot of things that neither Tolkien nor Ilúvatar would be fine with, particularly if they're hot in pop culture right now.

I agree with most folks here that Gandalf won't die, even temporarily in TH, but I'm not so confident about there not being some zombies along the line.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 3 2013, 5:09am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 3 2013, 6:20am

Post #18 of 21 (84 views)
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Again, I must agree with Elizabeth. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would add Burgahobbit that Gandalf is a different case than most. For a man resurrection would be very unusual indeed. I cannot say regarding animals or dwarves, as Durin reincarnates at least five times, but that does not seem to be typical for dwarves, rather a thing reserved for the original 7 fathers, especiall Durin the Eldest (though the Balrog's evil seemed to halt the process for a milennia). Elves' spirits could be freed from the Halls of Mandos to Reincarnate, usually in Valinor save in exemplary cases like Glorfindel's.

Gandalf, of course, was another matter entirely. He is A Holy Spirit, Angelic in nature. He was permitted to return in another incarnate form, this time one more true to his original state of being, which differs from some of the other ressurections.

The closest things to Zombies would be the Barrow Wights. Jackson could have zombies of that sort in the film without violating the foundations of the legendarium (not that the foolishness of WK vs. Gandalf doesn't manage that already, thank God only in EE), if they stick to that standard i.e. bodies inhabited by fell but disembodied Maiar, but in that case Azog and Thrain (though I do not now believe Thrain will be a zombie at all) could be reanimated, but as Burgahobbit suggests, it would be a false revival, and they would no more be Azog or Thrain than the Wights were really the deceased princes of Arnor returned.

In Reply To
Your post is well-written and researched, and makes perfect sense. But...

Tolkien would never have countenanced Aragorn beheading an emissary under a truce, just for an example. Jackson will do a lot of things that neither Tolkien nor Ilúvatar would be fine with, particularly if they're hot in pop culture right now.

I agree with most folks here that Gandalf won't die, even temporarily in TH, but I'm not so confident about there not being some zombies along the line.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 3 2013, 3:00pm

Post #19 of 21 (54 views)
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You are correct [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Gandalf's revival is a different sort of thing, but it was similar to what I was talking about so I thought I'd use it as an example. I'd also like to add that the Radagast scene is probably not strictly a "resurrection" either. Radagast draws the darkness (or witchcraft) out of the creature with his stone, restoring its health in this way. But since the creature, in effect, died and was brought back to life, it is very similar to "resurrection" and is definitely not necromancy.



Quote



but in that case Azog and Thrain (though I do not now believe Thrain will be a zombie at all) could be reanimated, but as Burgahobbit suggests, it would be a false revival, and they would no more be Azog or Thrain than the Wights were really the deceased princes of Arnor returned.




Yes that is a perfect way to put it AinurOlorin! And in reply to Elizabeth, yes Jackson makes his own rules sometimes, but I don't think that he would have Radagast or any other good characters practicing necromancy when one of the main antagonists is called the Necromancer. That's why I wanted to clear up the difference between necromancy and resurrection. I think the filmmakers may be trying to do the same thing (possibly) with the hedgehog scene (and perhaps some other scenes) to show that good characters can bring the dead back to life in a real way whereas the necromancer does it in a twisted and evil form. That's the way I'll take it at least, because otherwise the hedgehog scene is kind of random and unnecessary IMHO (unless it was just a way to show Radagast's love for animals.)

"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jul 3 2013, 3:04pm

Post #20 of 21 (54 views)
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Nice post dormouse! [In reply to] Can't Post

I somehow missed reading your post when I was reading everyone's replies the first time. So I guess my longer post was kind of unnecessary then since it says basically the same thing in more detail...Blush Oh well!

"You don't really suppose do you that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck? Just for your sole benefit?"
"There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought." - Gandalf the Grey, from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 3 2013, 6:00pm

Post #21 of 21 (57 views)
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Sebastian was only 'mostly' dead... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes Gandalf's revival is a different sort of thing, but it was similar to what I was talking about so I thought I'd use it as an example. I'd also like to add that the Radagast scene is probably not strictly a "resurrection" either. Radagast draws the darkness (or witchcraft) out of the creature with his stone, restoring its health in this way. But since the creature, in effect, died and was brought back to life, it is very similar to "resurrection" and is definitely not necromancy.
And in reply to Elizabeth, yes Jackson makes his own rules sometimes, but I don't think that he would have Radagast or any other good characters practicing necromancy when one of the main antagonists is called the Necromancer. That's why I wanted to clear up the difference between necromancy and resurrection. I think the filmmakers may be trying to do the same thing (possibly) with the hedgehog scene (and perhaps some other scenes) to show that good characters can bring the dead back to life in a real way whereas the necromancer does it in a twisted and evil form. That's the way I'll take it at least, because otherwise the hedgehog scene is kind of random and unnecessary IMHO (unless it was just a way to show Radagast's love for animals.)



The way I see it, Sebastian was only clinically dead, just as a person can be clinically dead and not beyond revival. If he had been all dead then the only thing that Radagast could have been done would be to turn him into a (talking?) purse (since Sebastian had no pockets to search in for loose change).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 3 2013, 6:01pm)

 
 

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