Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Persisting concerns about possible severe under-representation of Gandalf in Dol Guldur. . . he should not seem less effective than Aragorn would be.
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Rostron2
Gondor


Jun 25 2013, 6:30pm

Post #26 of 46 (251 views)
Shortcut
They are weekly. [In reply to] Can't Post

It even says 'persisting' in his thread title. This is where the weakness of this board's posting structure shows most. It could have been done in one thread.


Imladris18
Lorien

Jun 25 2013, 7:12pm

Post #27 of 46 (228 views)
Shortcut
You can always change it. [In reply to] Can't Post

You can change the list order so it goes by activity instead of creation by clicking where it says "creation."


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 25 2013, 8:09pm

Post #28 of 46 (208 views)
Shortcut
That would not work. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the individual poster who does that would see the thread bumped, but the purpose of opening a thread on the front page is so that other posters would see it. The OP is not starting this thread merely to see his own opinions again, he is inviting comments from others in order to continue a discussion on a topic of interest to him. This is the only way to do it on this board, that I am aware of.

It's weird to people used to the other system, but I have found it is not hard to get used to it. It has at least one benefit over the other. On other boards posting on a topic that is even 6 months dead and 5 pages back, can be viewed as a no-no (you;re supposed to search!) but here a quick scan of the front page is enough before you post a new thread on whatever topic you fancy.


Imladris18
Lorien

Jun 25 2013, 8:15pm

Post #29 of 46 (203 views)
Shortcut
Any poster can veiw activity by latest replies. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I do every time I visit the message boards. I view the latest created topics, but then I look at the recently replied.

If you list topics that way for yourself, you will never see active topics get buried.

I ain't even mad at the OP - I enjoy reading everything he posts (even though it's always Gandalf related :P ), I'm just trying to point it out for those who might not know.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 25 2013, 9:15pm

Post #30 of 46 (201 views)
Shortcut
Pssst... [In reply to] Can't Post

Would you mind putting more than a full stop in your subject lines? Those who read discussions threaded open the posts by clicking on the subject line, and we've had comments before that those with less than sharp eyesight can find it difficult to click on a dot.

Thanks.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jun 25 2013, 9:36pm

Post #31 of 46 (210 views)
Shortcut
Your concerns are understandable but may prove unfounded [In reply to] Can't Post

I am on holiday so thought I would check the boards out the mood is definitely better with a broader sense of enquiry.

To your question given the dreadful misrepresentation of Gandalf the White at Minus Tirith your fears are understandable. However both Radagast and Gandalf have been invested with the right kind of inherent power of the spirit in AUJ. Gandalf/Galadriel the telepathic ring bearers,Gandalf deciphering the hidden entrance to Rivendell, Gandalf and the Goblin King, and then lending enchantment to the escape from the mountain and the calling down of the Ainu's Eagles. Radagast banishing the spiders and confronting the Nazgul successfully. However the key is in Radagast's response to feeling the presence of the Necromencer, a power to great.

Gandalf barely escaped his confrontation with Thrain in the appendices he was probably put to it physically but overwhelmed by the knowledge of Saurons reintegration. I think there is a three act sub plot with a prologue being a benign interaction with Thrain handing over the map and key and probably separately a look back to the High Fells which provides Thorin with an explanation as to where Gandalf went after Rivendell and why he needs to leave the company. I need answers !!

Act 1

Gandalf and Radagasts joint visit to Dol Gulder discovers a mad Thain his torturer Bolg and the presence of a growing Sauron. It is the latter which makes him desperate to escape and provide proof to the White Council. Gandalf would not wish to try and face down the Lieutenant of Morgoth on his own. He may confront the Nazgul successfully only to find Sauron I wonder though whether endless confrontations would be replaced by a mixture of successful physical attacks followed by revelation by dangerous observation .

Act 2

Gandalf convenes a second White Council

Act 3

Battle of Dol Gulder where Gandalf places himself in a sacrificial role and is rescued from Saurons attentions. If the screen writers are sensible they will follow Tolkien and withdraw Sauron but making it clear to the audience it is a withdrawal rather than a defeat. So much so that he can direct the protagonists of The Battle of Five Armies but from afar setting up his return to B D.

Handled this way the only power whom Gandalf is hard put to spiritually is the evil Maia himself.

.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 2:39am

Post #32 of 46 (162 views)
Shortcut
Awww. Blushergized. lol [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushBlushBlush

In Reply To
I love reading AinurOlorin's posts. Very insightful and improves my knowledge of Middle-earth.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 2:42am

Post #33 of 46 (167 views)
Shortcut
Once it is decieded to be a trap and he starts being attacked, secrecy will no longer avail. [In reply to] Can't Post

At that point, getting out and back to the council with definitive news of the looming threat is all that matters, and if that means utilizing the greater part of his formidable powers to clear away Sauron's minions, there would be no remaining reason not to do so.

In Reply To
is whether Gandalf should be attempting to conceal his powers when checking out Dol Guldur. It's quite possible that, even not knowing the true identity of the Necromancer at this stage in the movie, he would wish to slip in and out of DG unnoticed. Certainly, once Gandalf realizes exactly who is residing in the abandoned fortress, he would wish to escape before any confrontation could take place - because, after all, the Istari were banned from confronting Sauron directly, and he would wish to take the news back to the WC asap. The actual assault on DG is a different matter, and that is perhaps when we will see Galadriel doing her "fireman's lift" stunt. There is still the reference from Sir Ian McKellen regarding Gandalf being rescued by Radagast, and unless that is to happen at the High Fells, it seems more likely to me that it might take place in DG on this first recce,..


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


GoBlue
The Shire

Jun 26 2013, 3:22am

Post #34 of 46 (153 views)
Shortcut
Hear, Hear! [In reply to] Can't Post

I found that these discussions were bad for my stress level, lol, however I will come to AinurOlorin's defence--as I did months ago, before and after AUJ came out. Galadriel is certainly a very powerful and important figure in middle earth. There has been much discussion on how you would "rank" her and the Istari and other influential figures. Judging from Ms. Boyens' comments at the time, it appeared they wanted to play up Galadriel's importance to the point where she was clearly <the> most powerful figure. During the white council scene, she's indeed portrayed as "the boss" and Gandalf is portrayed as more afraid and needing of support than Tolkien ever describes. This bothered me, because we saw it coming (and because of the reasons they did it---another can of worms).

Anyway, this is a good example of how the movies can influence people's view of the stories, even those who are familiar with the books. Thanks for fighting the good fight brother and reminding us that Gandalf is not of lesser importance!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 3:35am

Post #35 of 46 (155 views)
Shortcut
I agree about Frodo, but here there are several more layers of problems than existed with Frodo. [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo was diminished in how he was willing and emotionally/spirtually able to respond. He cringed and dropped his blade in a few places where he should have been fighting back, or at least trying to. However there is no contradiction, nor any restriction of powers that Frodo should have but strangely does not evince.

There is no ascribing in the novels, historical annals or any of the films of great martial powers to Frodo. He is more spirited and willing to at least make a real attempt to defend himself in the books, but even there he is no great warrior, and so while the film portrayal does him injustice, it does not strip him of any capabilities (aside from boldness perhaps).

Gandalf has lots of powers in the books, and (thankfull, as I was worried in this matter for a while until my concerns were allayed) many of those powers translate to film and show up in these movies as well. Thus, having him forgoe any use pf them if pressed by orcs and wraiths in Dol Guldur would not only misrepresent and diminish abilities that he wields, it also raises serious questions as to why he is not doing any of the things that the films themselves have made it clear he is capable of.

It would be as though Frodo, in the novels was some ultra-rare hobbit in whom the Fairy blood in the Took Line rang so true that he had the agility and fighting prowess of Legolas and a will and spiritual power to rival Aragorns, and was shown in the books and in places in the films to fight off trolls and phantoms, but then behaved exactly as we saw him in the existing movie trilogy during other parts of the film, with no explanation of the deviance.

In Reply To

All that being said, I do understand your concern about the possibility of Gandalf appearing to struggle with these "minor" enemies but then he's not the only one who has had to go through that in these adaptations - for example Frodo's helplessness all through FOTR was difficult for me to accept as well. But I understand that it is very difficult to transfer some of Tolkien's complex ideas to a different medium.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 3:39am

Post #36 of 46 (148 views)
Shortcut
Thank you, and well stated. I must say, my main concern in this particular set of posts is [In reply to] Can't Post

how Gandalf will be portrayed as a lone combatant in Dol Guldur, and the concern that he may be shown as no more effective than Aragorn or Legolas might be, but the seeming supplication of Istari to Elves to the point of being subordinate in both status and ability is still a real problem.

In Reply To
I found that these discussions were bad for my stress level, lol, however I will come to AinurOlorin's defence--as I did months ago, before and after AUJ came out. Galadriel is certainly a very powerful and important figure in middle earth. There has been much discussion on how you would "rank" her and the Istari and other influential figures. Judging from Ms. Boyens' comments at the time, it appeared they wanted to play up Galadriel's importance to the point where she was clearly <the> most powerful figure. During the white council scene, she's indeed portrayed as "the boss" and Gandalf is portrayed as more afraid and needing of support than Tolkien ever describes. This bothered me, because we saw it coming (and because of the reasons they did it---another can of worms).

Anyway, this is a good example of how the movies can influence people's view of the stories, even those who are familiar with the books. Thanks for fighting the good fight brother and reminding us that Gandalf is not of lesser importance!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 26 2013, 4:06am

Post #37 of 46 (140 views)
Shortcut
Virtual high-five [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool



dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 8:18am

Post #38 of 46 (132 views)
Shortcut
Well no, not quite.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't agree that Galadriel is portrayed as 'the boss' in the White Council scene.

I've read these kind as comments here before, of course, and I can certainly see where you and others are coming from in saying this, but it struck me a couple of days ago while watching the DVD that this isn't quite right. I can't quote the lines verbatim, but Elrond says something to Gandalf along the lines of '"I am not the one you have to answer to" and the next person we see is Galadriel - giving the impression, as you say, that she's in charge. But then SHE says something along the lines of 'I (or maybe we) have been summoned", and the camera pans round to Saruman, whose presence hasn't been hinted at until then. I may be describing this very badly, but it struck me in watching that the way that scene was constructed and written the point was made very clearly that Saruman was in charge; Galadriel was there because he called her. And the dynamic of the Council scene does seem to me to follow the little we know of it from Tolkien, to an extent. Saruman is in charge and is reluctant to take the threat seriously. Gandalf is the outsider, voicing concerns which aren't heeded. Galadriel is on his side but - importantly - can't vote down Saruman.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 8:45am

Post #39 of 46 (120 views)
Shortcut
I don't want to veer too far off from the central point of this parcitular thread, [In reply to] Can't Post

which is focused primarily on Gandalf and how he handles his confrontations in Dol Guldur prior to the council attack, HOWEVER, I see the relevance of your post. I also see the point, AND, I agree with your interpretation.

My problem with the scene and with what has been hinted at moving forward is that I REALLY have to read into the scene deeply AND have my existing prior knowledge at work to get what you got. It CAN be read the way you and I read it, but that isn't really the first intepretation that it lends itself to. That is the interpretation if you are hawk or eagle visioned, are very attentive and have a talent for nuance, or the other interpretations sit poorly with you to the point that you are already weighing the other options. The average person watching the movie who knows little of Valinor and The Ainur and the nature of THe Wise is not going to get what you did from that scene, and that is a problem.


As I said however, I want to keep the attention on how the likes of Gandalf should fare against the likes of Thrain, Bolg and The Nazgul, especially in consideration of his powers in the films, and how well Radagast and Aragorn acquited themselves against similar foes.

In Reply To
I don't agree that Galadriel is portrayed as 'the boss' in the White Council scene.

I've read these kind as comments here before, of course, and I can certainly see where you and others are coming from in saying this, but it struck me a couple of days ago while watching the DVD that this isn't quite right. I can't quote the lines verbatim, but Elrond says something to Gandalf along the lines of '"I am not the one you have to answer to" and the next person we see is Galadriel - giving the impression, as you say, that she's in charge. But then SHE says something along the lines of 'I (or maybe we) have been summoned", and the camera pans round to Saruman, whose presence hasn't been hinted at until then. I may be describing this very badly, but it struck me in watching that the way that scene was constructed and written the point was made very clearly that Saruman was in charge; Galadriel was there because he called her. And the dynamic of the Council scene does seem to me to follow the little we know of it from Tolkien, to an extent. Saruman is in charge and is reluctant to take the threat seriously. Gandalf is the outsider, voicing concerns which aren't heeded. Galadriel is on his side but - importantly - can't vote down Saruman.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 26 2013, 10:46am

Post #40 of 46 (109 views)
Shortcut
I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

Further, Gandalf responds to Galadriel with delight and a gallant comment upon her ageless beauty; his response to Saruman is less delighted, and also includes a brief bow of his head (which Saruman does not return), which to me seemed an indication of higher relative status for Saruman, and ambiguous (equal?) status for Gandalf relative to Galadriel.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 26 2013, 6:29pm

Post #41 of 46 (87 views)
Shortcut
Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

No comment other than in support and agreement, as usual. If I see an AinurOlorin post, I read it because I know its content is well-argued and thoughtful. And I love any well-reasoned discussion about the uppity-ups of Middle-earth.

You seem to have enough material posted on these matters to publish it on a website. You might think of consolidating your posts into something formal. It's not like you'd have to do more work - just cull from your daily posts here. I wouldn't want to take away the fun by suggesting a commitment to regular articles somewhere, but you have a knack for finding interesting column topics.

Cool


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jun 26 2013, 6:30pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 26 2013, 6:37pm

Post #42 of 46 (78 views)
Shortcut
I agree with all you post here JW [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No comment other than in support and agreement, as usual. If I see an AinurOlorin post, I read it because I know its content is well-argued and thoughtful. And I love any well-reasoned discussion about the uppity-ups of Middle-earth.

You seem to have enough material posted on these matters to publish it on a website. You might think of consolidating your posts into something formal. It's not like you'd have to do more work - just cull from your daily posts here. I wouldn't want to take away the fun by suggesting a commitment to regular articles somewhere, but you have a knack for finding interesting column topics.

Cool




I second JW's well composed esteem Ainur-Olorin, and as I have written to you before, your topics are ones I always read with pleasure, even if I don't always jump in. Very much brought me out of lurk mode from last year!
And of course if you would ever like to put together a piece for the Symposium in the RR we would be thrilled to see you there. Angelic

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 6:11am

Post #43 of 46 (57 views)
Shortcut
*swelling with fond appreciation* [In reply to] Can't Post

*hugs* High praise from one whose posts I also find very insightful and carefully composed.

In Reply To
No comment other than in support and agreement, as usual. If I see an AinurOlorin post, I read it because I know its content is well-argued and thoughtful. And I love any well-reasoned discussion about the uppity-ups of Middle-earth.

You seem to have enough material posted on these matters to publish it on a website. You might think of consolidating your posts into something formal. It's not like you'd have to do more work - just cull from your daily posts here. I wouldn't want to take away the fun by suggesting a commitment to regular articles somewhere, but you have a knack for finding interesting column topics.

Cool


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 27 2013, 6:11am

Post #44 of 46 (54 views)
Shortcut
My thanks to you, [In reply to] Can't Post

accompanied by more hugs. And I may yet take up that Reading Room offer. Smile

In Reply To

In Reply To
No comment other than in support and agreement, as usual. If I see an AinurOlorin post, I read it because I know its content is well-argued and thoughtful. And I love any well-reasoned discussion about the uppity-ups of Middle-earth.

You seem to have enough material posted on these matters to publish it on a website. You might think of consolidating your posts into something formal. It's not like you'd have to do more work - just cull from your daily posts here. I wouldn't want to take away the fun by suggesting a commitment to regular articles somewhere, but you have a knack for finding interesting column topics.

Cool




I second JW's well composed esteem Ainur-Olorin, and as I have written to you before, your topics are ones I always read with pleasure, even if I don't always jump in. Very much brought me out of lurk mode from last year!
And of course if you would ever like to put together a piece for the Symposium in the RR we would be thrilled to see you there. Angelic


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 27 2013, 6:59am

Post #45 of 46 (50 views)
Shortcut
AO [In reply to] Can't Post

From the Two Towers Gandy says it best:


Quote

"Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman," said Gimli. "But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous."
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous—not least to those who are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless."


I don't wanna get into a who's the toughest debate, but even Tolkien himself in the Hobbit by inference makes Gandalf seem less powerful than he is. Gandalf get's a broken arm in BO5A, he goes to Elrond for advice about the swords and the map, and Gandy nearly goes out in a blaze of glory when they were trapped in the trees by the goblins and wargs.

I think as "bad guys" do, Sauron will throw his cannon fodder at Gandalf to try and tip him up or just for the sadistically simple enjoyment of making it rough on him by trying to overwhelm him. And, even though he hasn't revealed himself, Sauron IS at Dol Guldur, otherwise there would be no need to drive him out ...


“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 28 2013, 4:34am

Post #46 of 46 (39 views)
Shortcut
I don't disagree with much of what you say. I am not saying Gandalf should breeze out of Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

(and I hope Galadriel doesn't either). I am merely saying, it should be one hell of a show if and when Gandalf meets Bolg and The Nazgul. We should see a lot more from Gandalf than we would from Boromir, Aragorn or even Legolas or Thranduil, because Gandalf commands powers that they do not, and we have seen examples of them in the film.

It has to be shown that he is not to be taken lightly, neither by monstrous orc captains nor by the Wraiths of Sorcerer Kings, even if, ultimately, he is not unassailable and is not a match for Sauron.

In Reply To
From the Two Towers Gandy says it best:


Quote

"Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman," said Gimli. "But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous."
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous—not least to those who are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless."


I don't wanna get into a who's the toughest debate, but even Tolkien himself in the Hobbit by inference makes Gandalf seem less powerful than he is. Gandalf get's a broken arm in BO5A, he goes to Elrond for advice about the swords and the map, and Gandy nearly goes out in a blaze of glory when they were trapped in the trees by the goblins and wargs.

I think as "bad guys" do, Sauron will throw his cannon fodder at Gandalf to try and tip him up or just for the sadistically simple enjoyment of making it rough on him by trying to overwhelm him. And, even though he hasn't revealed himself, Sauron IS at Dol Guldur, otherwise there would be no need to drive him out ...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.