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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thrain resurrected by the Necromancer?

CaptainFaramir13
The Shire

Jun 17 2013, 12:57am

Post #1 of 24 (840 views)
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Thrain resurrected by the Necromancer? Can't Post

Since it seems they are playing up the Necromancer in the films, and giving a reason for him being called that with him resurrecting the Nazgul, it is possible that they might continue to do this in the other films. One of the ways they might do this is to have Thorinís father Thrain actually die at some point and have Sauron resurrect him. I have heard a theory that Gandalf meets Thrain twice in the films, the first time Gandalf gets the map and key, and the second time is when Thrain attacks Gandalf at Dol Guldur and they fight as seen in the trailer. Perhaps the first encounter ends in Thrainís death and the second encounter is with a resurrected Thrain. What do you guys think?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Jun 17 2013, 1:05am

Post #2 of 24 (452 views)
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What do I think? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I'm going to be sick. Unsure

Tongue

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 17 2013, 1:07am

Post #3 of 24 (429 views)
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Personally... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a ridiculously bad idea. I feel it'd be a slap in Tolkien's face. Of course, I still think including Azog is a slap in Tolkien's face, so don't take my opinion too seriously...


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 17 2013, 1:09am

Post #4 of 24 (439 views)
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Why would the Necromancer want to resurrect Thrain? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand a case being made for Azog, but not for Thrain.

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf

Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."

(This post was edited by bungobaggins on Jun 17 2013, 1:10am)


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Jun 17 2013, 1:14am

Post #5 of 24 (435 views)
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Azog and Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

How can Azog be a respawn? Where is his mortal wound?
The hand is missing, but the necromancer healed the wound
but did not regenerate the limb?


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 1:48am

Post #6 of 24 (394 views)
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noooo [In reply to] Can't Post

its gonna be like voldermort, needing a corpse to regenerate type thing euurrghh

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 1:55am

Post #7 of 24 (362 views)
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Nah [In reply to] Can't Post

The Necromancer is getting his name from supposedly awakening the Nazgul. Remember the blade that "isn't from the land of the living"? I expect no orcs and least of all Thrain to be zombified. I wonder if the "What if it's a trap!?" and the Thrain fight is the same visit. I suspect he will only see Thrain once.


CaptainFaramir13
The Shire

Jun 17 2013, 2:13am

Post #8 of 24 (368 views)
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More Speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to be clear, I am not saying that this is a particularly good idea, though I think it could be interesting depending on how they do it. I am not a book purist, though I do love the books. I know that with the films they are going to change things and I just kind of go with it. I view the films as a kind of alternate universe, and the books remain unchanged. But that is another topic. With this topic I am just speculating on what they might do. Smile

Now, as for why Sauron would resurrect Thrain, perhaps he wants to use him to hinder Thorinís quest somehow. Or, as seems more likely, he is setting up a trap for Gandalf (which could be what Gandalf and Radagast are talking about in the trailer.) I know he would not necessarily need to die for these things to happen, but perhaps the film has him die at Moria or something and Sauron has to resurrect him for his purposes.



The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 4:33am

Post #9 of 24 (298 views)
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I doubt it [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like Sauron wouldn't want to keep a Dwarf lord alive after getting what he needs from him. There will be a simpler explanation most likely.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 5:15am

Post #10 of 24 (296 views)
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If they DO go that route, a lure/trap for Gandalf seems most likely. The [In reply to] Can't Post

doppleganger person who is NOT actually that person anymore, but is sent to lure in someone who knew and cared at least casually about them is an old, and when used effectively very creppy, trope in horror tales. Think Pet Cemetary. Said individual comes back. . . . but it wasn't really him/her/it. It was. . . something else. Something evil. . . etc.

A raised Thrain could be used both to lure the Wizard and to get past his defenses, since Gandalf would not want to risk killing Thrain if there were any hope of saving him.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 6:09am

Post #11 of 24 (297 views)
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Not resurrected;, but reanimated... [In reply to] Can't Post

If that is, indeed, Thrain that we've seen seemingly attack Gandalf in the "present" timeframe of The Hobbit then I don't think that he was resurrected from the dead. Rather, I think that his corpse may be reanimated as a Wight by an evil spirit summoned by Sauron. The undead Dwarf-lord would probably be utilized as a dungeon guard and perhaps to torment Dwarven prisoners. This, it seems to me, would be more in the spirit of Tolkien's Middle-earth.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Mrredbirdy
The Shire

Jun 17 2013, 6:30am

Post #12 of 24 (278 views)
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No Reasons to resurrect Thrain [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think they will show Thrain two times in the Hobbit.

First reason, it would be boring to have a scene
with Gandalf and Thrain two time.

Second reason, what reason should the necromancer have to resurrect Thrain? Tolkien described that Thrain was put in the
cellars of Dol Guldur, to die a slow and lonely death there. The necromancer had no interests anymore in Thrain, after he took the dwarven ring from him and that was a mistake, because by leaving Thrain on his own, Thrain was aible to keep the key and the map and give it to Gandalf.

By the way, if we really want to now if there will be a flashback
scene and a scene with a resurrected Thrain, the people that have seen the comic con event last year should comment. I believe that at that event a scene between Thrain and Gandalf was shown. If it isn't the same as the shot in the trailer, then we can speculate further...


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 8:39am

Post #13 of 24 (240 views)
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Not saying they shouldn't go that route, [In reply to] Can't Post

but from the book Thrain was half mad from his torture at the hands of Sauron and his minions, so he's just as liable to attack on his own.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 8:46am

Post #14 of 24 (245 views)
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Too complicated... [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, I think it is. Thrain has been in captivity too long and has been too traumatised by it to remember who he is and he sees everyone who comes near him as a potential threat. That's pretty close to the story Tolkien outlined. I really can't see them introducing any elaborate plot about reanimated corpses which would take up screen time to be developed and explained.

'Necromancy' is specifically 'The art of prediction by supposed communication with the dead; magic, sorcery, enchantment' [OED] It has nothing to do with zombies.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 8:50am

Post #15 of 24 (239 views)
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Nygromansye [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'Necromancy' is specifically 'The art of prediction by supposed communication with the dead; magic, sorcery, enchantment' [OED] It has nothing to do with zombies.



Yup translated from the old English word above it simply meant black magic not all that stuff hollywood seems to like to portray now.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 2:27pm

Post #16 of 24 (180 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

For bringing that up! There is a vastly huge difference and I believe that the filmmakers acknowledge that. The fact that Sting doesn't glow blue for the reanimated orcs (if they are of reanimated of course) shows that they are not resurrected, but reanimated. Besides, resurrection is not an act connected with evil and necromancy whatsoever and so it would not make sense at all.

"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jun 17 2013, 2:27pm)


nhui06
Rivendell

Jun 17 2013, 3:45pm

Post #17 of 24 (166 views)
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Mad Thrain [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be interesting to see what other 'necromancing' work is done by the Necromancer outside of 'raising' the Nazgul. I mean, the book never got into detail what the Necromancer did, so this leaves room for Peter Jackson.

I do not believe Thrain is raised from the dead; he was probably tortured to madness, and now serves as a minion to the Necromancer. If anything Azog should have been the one raised (since Thorin was so sure Azog was dead), but it does not look to be that way either.


SkaldOfTheNorse
Bree


Jun 17 2013, 4:22pm

Post #18 of 24 (164 views)
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Necromancer is not per se someone who raises the dead... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok I think necromancer is supposed to mean someone practicing dark magic, which does not directly have to imply raising the dead.
For now I will stick with the theory that the scene with Thrain attacking Gandalf is a flashback which in itself will be shown during or prior to the scene with Radagast and Gandalf together ("What if it is a trap?!").
Although I am curious how TDOS will explain Gandalf's reaction about Dol Guldur to Radagast in AUJ. Because if it is a flashback to the moment when Gandalf retreived the map and the key (prior to AUJ) then Gandalf must have known something foul was residing in Dol Guldur.
Did Thrain give the map/key to Gandalf or did Gandalf get it (from Thrain's dead corpse after the attack).
Maybe Gandalf does not want Thorin to know at that point in time that Gandalf in fact slew his dad (even though Thrain attacked him first).

Skald


Wink


(This post was edited by SkaldOfTheNorse on Jun 17 2013, 4:27pm)


CaptainFaramir13
The Shire

Jun 17 2013, 5:47pm

Post #19 of 24 (126 views)
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Good point! [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not mean to imply that resurrection was an act connected with evil. I agree that reanimated is a better word for what I meant! Smile

Also about Necromancy meaning "Black magic," I actually did not know that. Very interesting!


(This post was edited by CaptainFaramir13 on Jun 17 2013, 5:49pm)


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jun 18 2013, 1:21am

Post #20 of 24 (72 views)
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You're good! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Resurrection" is a word that has been being used for ages in regard to the necromancer on this forum. There's a big difference between the two, but it can be hard to see so it isn't that a big of a deal for people to call it "resurrection" without thinking. I was just glad to see someone finally address it on here and I'm sorry if I seemed rude about it. Evil Also, necromancy means "black magic" to be sure, but it is also means "communicating with the dead" (google it and see) or "summoning dead spirits". In the film they exaggerate it much more than this (reanimation) but like I said before, I think it's all still in the spirit of Tolkien's necromancer (no pun intended). Tongue

"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 18 2013, 1:34am

Post #21 of 24 (75 views)
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GOD PLEASE NO!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm gonna start praying really hard this never happens. Tongue


namarie
Rohan


Jun 18 2013, 10:12am

Post #22 of 24 (61 views)
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all I am going to say is NO [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain doesn't have to die when he first meets Gandalf and he doesn't need to be resurrected.
He can be alive and well when he first meets Gandalf and then he can be in Dol Guldur still alive when Gandalf goes there.


"The world is not in your books and maps. It's out there!"

"Such is the nature of evil. In time all foul things come forth."


DarkJackal
Rohan


Jun 19 2013, 1:24am

Post #23 of 24 (51 views)
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Evidence [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been worried something like this was going to happen. For a long time it wasn't clear when the Gandalf/Thrain fight took place, but with the new trailer, it looks like Gandalf does have Glamdring, so it happens during the present.

http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/...hd-mp4_000086127.jpg

That also supports one of the "spoilers" from Hobbitcon.

But Gandalf must have either met Thrain in the past, or was given the map and key with specific instructions from him based on what Gandalf says in the first film.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 19 2013, 5:40am

Post #24 of 24 (54 views)
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Agreed. And it is worrisome. Some of the choices they are making. . . so superflous and [In reply to] Can't Post

defiant. Mad

In Reply To
I've been worried something like this was going to happen. For a long time it wasn't clear when the Gandalf/Thrain fight took place, but with the new trailer, it looks like Gandalf does have Glamdring, so it happens during the present.

http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/...hd-mp4_000086127.jpg

That also supports one of the "spoilers" from Hobbitcon.

But Gandalf must have either met Thrain in the past, or was given the map and key with specific instructions from him based on what Gandalf says in the first film.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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