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Some selected points from the 2009 read-through

noWizardme
Grey Havens


Jun 23 2013, 10:15am


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Some selected points from the 2009 read-through [In reply to] Can't Post

This time I'm really doing what I've meant to do in previous chapters I've "chaired" - go and look in previous read-throughs and summarise and select from what was said back then. It may seem a bit odd, but my favoured approach to so do that at the close of our this-time-around discussion. My thought is that that allows the 2013 discussion to evolve in the way that best suits the 2013 participants. I'm nervous that by bringing in earlier discussions too soon, things might turn into a literature review of existing opinions, rather than a new discussion.
Or it might seem that there is nothing else to say.
Or that we just have a rehash of the last time around, which would probably be quite boring for those who participated in it.

Conversely though, earlier discussions seem usually to have been every bit as good, though different from, the current round, and it's a pity to leave all that good material in the depths of the servers.

Quite aside from all those misgivings about how best to do this, In previous chapters, I simply didn't quite make it into the archives in time!

This time though, I have, and return a little dust-covered but triumphant. Here's some of what was said last time around - for contrast with 2013:

It seems that this chapter was last discussed in 2009. (I had yet to find theonering.net back then). The discussion was led by Saelind. Here's a selective summary with links. It's bound to be a +selective+ summary - please feel free to point out that I missed other relevant threads, or to comment on things in that 2009 discussion I left out here! Smile


2009 Thread #1 http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222208#222208
Considered the opening: what is the significance of Fingolfin's unsuccessful attempt to rally the elves for an offensive - does it produce a nice foreshadowing of doom? Why does Melkor's offensive run out of steam - because the other Valar doing anything to help the Allies? Opinions differed.

2009 Thread #2 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222209#222209
This took further a compare/contrast we touched upon this time around - between Fingolfin, rushing off to attack Morgoth, and Fingolfin's half-brother Feanor: both hot-headed sons of their Father? And why is Morgoth afraid? because he alone among the Valar has cut himself off from his source (Eru)?

2009 Thread #3 http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222378#222378
Covers The House of Beor and Emeldir the shield maiden (or shieldmatron?) who leads the people away to safety while a guerilla war is continued by a small group (including, significantly, Beren). Should the humans have retreated earlier? The conclusion seems to be "yes for their own sake" but "no if you see this as essential for setting up Beren and Luthien".
Dreamdeer, had some interesting thoughts about what it might have been like to stay behind with the guerillas:

Quote
What a nightmarish thing, to slowly watch your beloved homeland turn, degree by degree, into a horrible and haunted place! This, to me, has more impact than Mordor, or even on seeing Bag End trashed into an extension of Mordor, because you can imagine it happening right before your eyes--with the character you are there, watching the young trees grow up from a beloved old tree's stump and come up all wrong, watching your childhood playgrounds seethe with crawling things, watching the brook by which you proposed to your wife slowly become poisoned and foul. And trying desperately to hold on, trying to believe that if you can just stem the tide of evil you can heal your home, you can love it back to its true self, but each day it grows stranger to you, possessed, until one final, dreadful day you realize that the enemy has completely permeated it and now your homeland is Enemy, too.


2009 Thread 4 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222695#222695
Sauron, the first Minas Tirith and treachery. Some thoughts about how human the elves seem at this phase (mistrusting each other in this chapter) - they are much more passionate than those we see in the 3rd age LOTR. Because by then they've learned from experience and the Sil is that experience? Because the hot-heads inclined to engage Evil Valar in single combat aren't around in the Third Age?


2009 Thread 5 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222696#222696
Why are the "swarthy men" less reliable than the Edain? A tinge of racism? (Some of the Swarty Men +are+ loyal, of course - all the "B" ones). An idea from batik:

Quote
I think some of this (relations between Men and Elves as well as between the Edain and other Men) was *explained* in the last two paragraphs of the previous chapter. The Edain had been in the company of the Noldor which apparently allowed them to be a little more resistant to some of the pitfalls of life. Kind of similar to the Noldor having a bit of an advantage of other Elves due to their being in the company of the Valar. Of course this does not exempt any of them from making mistakes!


2009 Thread 6 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222976#222976
Huor and Húrin
When they leave Gondolin, the discussion was asked:

Quote
“Maeglin… grieved not at all at their going, though he begrudged them the favour of the King, for he had no love for any of the kindred of Men;…Why? He’s never met any Men before this so why the antipathy?

Opinions differed: he'd met Men before (or heard of them via Dwarvish connections of his father). Or they were being allowed to depart when he was not.

Another question

Quote
Thus it was that the sons of Galdor were fostered in Brethil by Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of men in that time…”

led to this gem from Dreamdeer:

Quote
As my Grandma pointed out when my brother and I hit our teens, fostering makes a lot of sense--as soon as the kids reach an age where they think their parents are idiots, switch guardians. If Eol had abided by this custom he could have avoided a whollllle lot of trouble!

Wink

2009 Thread 7 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=223100#223100
Among the wrap-up points I liked this (Saelind's question, with Dreamdeer's answer):

Quote
Does it bother you that Morogth is portrayed as this super unbeatable bad guy sometimes and at others almost human-like in his fears?

Quite the opposite. I loathe stereotypes and one-note characters, and don't know why people keep criticising Tolkien for his subtlety and complexity of characterization--when they're not accusing him of lacking it.

We have two paradoxical dooms here. One is that the Noldor cannot ultimately win, and deep down they know it. The other is that Morgoth cannot ultimately win, and deep down he knows it. Both awarenesses make those who have them ever plagued with doubt. In the Noldor it comes out as suspiciousness and fear-driven betrayals that in turn inspire more suspiciousness and more betrayal. In Morgoth it robs him of contentment--no matter what he attains, at what cost, he cannot enjoy it, but only obsess on guarding it still further against the day when he ultimately must lose it.


And finally a lovely sketch of Morgoth - (Dreamdeer again): "Morgoth probably doesn't like pie, but would gobble down somebody else's slice if he thought they liked pie."

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

Subject User Time
Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Chapter 18: Of The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 9:08am
    Tolkien's personal and literary experiences of war, and their influence on this chapter noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 9:15am
        Heroic myths Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 16 2013, 1:21pm
            Written for the ear! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 5:37pm
                Hear, hear CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 16 2013, 8:37pm
                I agree... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jun 16 2013, 8:45pm
        large scale Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 16 2013, 5:51pm
            Soldiers and wooden blocks noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 6:01pm
                The two faces of war CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 16 2013, 8:51pm
                    "Modern generals never fight now" squire Send a private message to squire Jun 17 2013, 2:47am
                        "He uses others as his weapons" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 17 2013, 11:47am
                            England has such picky, arcane rules for kingship CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 17 2013, 12:13pm
                            Another reason for "safe" generals CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 17 2013, 12:18pm
                            The tragedy of Denethor FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 18 2013, 1:31pm
                                I think some of this depends on the particular situation. Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Jun 18 2013, 1:40pm
                                Generalship by walking around noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 18 2013, 2:00pm
                                    the suicides of fingolfin and denethor Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 2:26pm
                                        Denethor fan! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 3:06pm
                                            so the grima thing... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 5:09pm
                                                Yes, I do give it away in my Facebook entries CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 5:18pm
                                            a little denethor trivia Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 6:13pm
                                                LOL and LOL some more // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 7:14pm
                                                    is it... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 7:16pm
                                                        No, he's much redeemed in my eyes. Especially because of the coupons. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 7:21pm
                                                            lol! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 7:22pm
                                                            btw Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 8:03pm
                                                Question on the senior menu... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 19 2013, 12:24am
                                                    you know what's dangerous? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 12:52am
                                        regarding "poof" Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 3:52pm
                                            I don't believe anyone could believe you're intolerant. :) // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 5:02pm
                                                hope not : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 5:27pm
                                                    Uruk High? That's the school for orcs…? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 18 2013, 8:40pm
                                                        indeed Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 11:50pm
                                                            I'm also avoiding imagining Uruk High's cheerleaders... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 19 2013, 7:32am
                                                        I thought it was a drug reference CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 19 2013, 12:14am
                                                second that!// telain Send a private message to telain Jun 19 2013, 10:05pm
                                                    ah, Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 10:11pm
                                                        BLT? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 19 2013, 11:25pm
                                                            sounds delish! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 11:43pm
                                                                Troll fare CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 20 2013, 12:44pm
                                                                    i think i see the problem... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 20 2013, 3:17pm
                                                            Hungry after a long day CG? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 20 2013, 12:17am
                                                        yummy! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 20 2013, 5:54pm
                                        Interesting compare/contrast! A further one - how about Fingolfin c.f. Frodo? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 18 2013, 4:48pm
                                            fingolfin and frodo Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 11:24pm
                                                Fingolfin & Frodo - great contrast - so much depends on motivation noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 19 2013, 9:26am
                                                    Very interesting tie-in to Tuchman's book! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 19 2013, 12:08pm
                                        Maybe more like Theoden? FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 18 2013, 4:49pm
                                            love theoden! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 3:50pm
                                                Now you've got me thinking... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 20 2013, 7:07pm
                                                    heya : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 20 2013, 7:16pm
                                                        Yes, as our Silmarillion discussion progresses CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 20 2013, 7:43pm
                                                            nobody Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 20 2013, 7:46pm
                                                                Manwe and choices Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 20 2013, 8:47pm
                                                                    Manwe's choice CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 20 2013, 10:01pm
                                                                        Oh no - don't tell me Manwe has read my footer...// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 20 2013, 10:14pm
                                    Good point about the mourning and despair. Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Jun 18 2013, 2:32pm
                        Yes, it's amazing how aggressive the US "Department of Defense" can be. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 17 2013, 12:38pm
            "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jun 19 2013, 9:58pm
                ha! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 10:05pm
        Thanks for the summary NoWiz elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jun 16 2013, 8:19pm
    Fingolfin's single combat noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 9:16am
        Finglofin Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 16 2013, 1:08pm
        acting upon the rage of sorrow Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 16 2013, 6:02pm
            Exceptionally well put here Telpemairo! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 17 2013, 12:25am
                thank-eee Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 17 2013, 2:31am
        Pathos and Turgon CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 17 2013, 12:46pm
            Excellent and touching point CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 17 2013, 6:15pm
        more thoughts on Fingolfin telain Send a private message to telain Jun 18 2013, 12:40am
        Better late than never Lothwen Send a private message to Lothwen Jun 21 2013, 9:01am
            Facing Sauron as an improvement cf facing Morgoth noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 21 2013, 9:39am
    Call not to the gods.... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 9:19am
        no real realization yet Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 16 2013, 6:13pm
        Huh, don't get me started on the Valar! elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jun 16 2013, 8:34pm
            The Valar don't know fear... telain Send a private message to telain Jun 18 2013, 2:03pm
                perhaps that's part of the problem Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 18 2013, 11:13pm
        East calling West CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 16 2013, 9:00pm
            Calling for help Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 16 2013, 9:10pm
                That must be it, Brethil CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 16 2013, 10:06pm
            If it comes to that... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Jun 16 2013, 10:08pm
        More on calling for help Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 17 2013, 5:02pm
            what if... telain Send a private message to telain Jun 18 2013, 1:45pm
                Makes it more heroic if so - and a bit on Thorondor Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 18 2013, 2:32pm
                    The Valar aren't coming! The Eagles aren't coming! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 18 2013, 3:28pm
                        well put telain Send a private message to telain Jun 18 2013, 4:22pm
                        Indomitable spirit noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 18 2013, 5:27pm
    Eagles and matters of fate and doom noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 9:20am
        More on eagles Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 18 2013, 2:44pm
    Under-energetic allies? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 16 2013, 10:08am
        Hey, the Orcs aren't in MY living room, why should I care? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 16 2013, 8:20pm
    oh and... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 17 2013, 2:29am
    All of the postings to this thread - AWESOME ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Jun 19 2013, 9:04pm
        Thanks Itnjmy! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 19 2013, 9:21pm
        yes, but... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Jun 19 2013, 10:03pm
        Good to see you Itnjmy! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 19 2013, 11:56pm
        Thanks for the compliments, Itnjmy. We always appreciate your feedback and are glad you enjoy the discussion. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 20 2013, 5:37pm
    Some selected points from the 2009 read-through noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 23 2013, 10:15am

 
 
 

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