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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Chapter 18: Of The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 19 2013, 10:03pm

Post #76 of 97 (166 views)
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yes, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, but... how do you feel about denethor's waffles, ltnjmy?


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 19 2013, 10:05pm

Post #77 of 97 (160 views)
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second that!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 19 2013, 10:05pm

Post #78 of 97 (167 views)
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ha! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
great observation, darkstone. he was probably in a much better position than many combatants to get a sense of how the battles were faring.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 19 2013, 10:11pm

Post #79 of 97 (164 views)
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ah, [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ah, thanks, telain. : )


denethor is sending over some pancakes (known as the beacon short-stack -- it was inspired by brethil) on the house. do enjoy, and don't forget to tip your gondorian soldier-server.


also, i will confess to being prejudiced against high fructose corn syrup. there's none of that sort of dark sorcery in any of denny's dishes.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 19 2013, 11:25pm

Post #80 of 97 (162 views)
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BLT? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you serve a Beacon Lembas Tar-Magor sandwich with a side of ghash browns? Please don't make them with those things that result from partially hydrogenated oils; I think they're called hamfasts?

Oh, it's been a long day.Unsure


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 19 2013, 11:43pm

Post #81 of 97 (154 views)
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sounds delish! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and -- yes -- that item is certainly on our menu, which is in three volumes, and comes with multi-part appendices and a phylogenic tree explaining the evolution of the spices we use. also, there's a shorter menu that we originally geared towards children, and we're now not sure how to tie in to the more adult fare. but it's still available.

if i may make a suggestion... the fish is always fresh, and we also serve it raw. sort of like sushi. but without rice or marinades or chopsticks. or you may like a troll-tart (baked fresh nightly). but eat it before dawn, or you'll likely chip a tooth.

or if you're in a valar-ous mood, why don't you try our gorgorbroth stew, and finally get a chance to taste real fear?

i'll come back in a few minutes, to give you time to decide.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 19 2013, 11:56pm

Post #82 of 97 (154 views)
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Good to see you Itnjmy! [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you are enjoying it - you are rather like our very quiet cheerleader...! Smile And of course you are always welcome to join in as well!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 20 2013, 12:17am

Post #83 of 97 (150 views)
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Hungry after a long day CG? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Do you serve a Beacon Lembas Tar-Magor sandwich with a side of ghash browns? Please don't make them with those things that result from partially hydrogenated oils; I think they're called hamfasts?

Oh, it's been a long day.Unsure




Hamfasts are off the menu. I think they have Hamlets though, elegant braised little ham sections...but you only have half-an-hour to eat them, because then that's all the time they have left.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 20 2013, 12:44pm

Post #84 of 97 (136 views)
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Troll fare [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
or you may like a troll-tart (baked fresh nightly). but eat it before dawn, or you'll likely chip a tooth.

Love that!

But I must confess I find your Red Book of Menu intimidating. For one thing, the list of entrees beginning with F just goes on forever and I can't keep them straight.

Fish
Fishes
Fisheses
Fishnor
Fin o' dolphin
Fins-gone (de-finned fish)
Fins--whee!
Fish still on fish-rod
Fin-barfin (troll fare, I assume)

And that's just a sampling of the fish options!

I do like the dwarf-squished jelly on troll scones, but have the dwarves been deboned, and are the scones gluten-free?

You might try some variety in your condiments. It seems everything is seasoned with athelas. I thought that was only good for headaches as a tea; what's it doing in an entree of herbs and stewed rabbit?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 20 2013, 3:17pm

Post #85 of 97 (129 views)
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i think i see the problem... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you're not actually looking at our published, three-volume menu... you've been looking at menu items that are in draft form. admittedly, it's a very intriguing menu.

we've made up names for different foods, and there's a guide at the back that tells you, for example, that the "b" in "bacon" is silent.

and i +completely+ understand about the Fs -- you are absolutely right... we did go a little crazy there.... i think it was because that everything was so +freaking+ good.

admittedly, some of these dishes never got out of the test kitchen. for example, our feanorsdoeuvres always seemed to come out burnt, no matter what temperature we used in the oven.


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 20 2013, 5:37pm

Post #86 of 97 (123 views)
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Thanks for the compliments, Itnjmy. We always appreciate your feedback and are glad you enjoy the discussion. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Jun 20 2013, 5:54pm

Post #87 of 97 (121 views)
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yummy! [In reply to] Can't Post

And so happy to know that I will not be cheated by some artificially sweetened spell... that beacon short stack is most enjoyable!

and a generous tip to that soldier-server -- such lovely...manners!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 20 2013, 7:07pm

Post #88 of 97 (123 views)
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Now you've got me thinking... [In reply to] Can't Post

... of Eowyn!

maciliel: Fingolfin rode forth, deliberately, to fight a foe he knew he had no chance of defeating... he chose to face death in his own way, to take control

Eowyn: check

maciliel: fingolfin is abdicating his role by riding forth alone.

Eowyn: check (not alone, although hidden. But definitely abdicating the role she had been given.)

maciliel: the despair....


Eowyn: check

maciliel: i wonder if part of fingolfin's impetus to the challenge is showing the valar that the eldar have the will and courage to fight even against an unbeatable, terrible foe.

Eowyn: replace "the valar" with "Aragorn" and it kind of works...

There's even a similarity in the description of the two overmatched warriors, gleaming below the dark shadow of their opponent. They both manage to dodge the mace of their great opponent and wound him - although only Eowyn (with a little help from Merry and an obscure prophecy) actually is able to win the hopeless battle. In fact, remembering the tale of Fingolfin perhaps makes Eowyn's story all the more moving. Did it also contribute to the Witch-King's complacency, maybe? If only Fingolfin had had a hobbit to lend a hand.

Tongue

I have to admit I'm not really that into the Silmarillion, as I find it hard to think of these mythic characters as real people - although I'm really seeing how it can be done as I follow along with you guys' inspirational ideas. But even so I've always liked the way echoes of these old tales find their way into the tales of the Third Age.

(Hope the job interviews are going okay, maciliel.)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 20 2013, 7:16pm

Post #89 of 97 (118 views)
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heya : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ha! : )

fantastic comparison, farfromhome, between fingolfin and eowyn! : )

if only fingolfin had had his own hobbit, it might have made all the difference. he made the fatal mistake of trying to wound his dark opponent's leg +himself+, and clearly, that is +hobbit business+.

having a hobbit when going into battle is rather like having a... pocket knife. that is sentient.

so cool that you're getting a more personal vibe from the sil through our discussions --- me too. : ) although i have always been an ardent silophile, the characters (because of the language used and fragmentary nature of the narratives) seem removed a step from familiarity and understanding... i think the reader has to work a bit harder to see them as flesh and blood. we have a plethora of folks here who love to apply psychological perspectives to the characters (including me), so that helps quite a bit.

when you eventually reread lotr... i wonder when some of these sil characters are mentioned, it will give you a little, shiverous thrill.

(and thanks for the kind words re the job search... no bites yet, but there is steady dialog between me and recruiters, so hopefully something will turn up soon...)


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 20 2013, 7:43pm

Post #90 of 97 (111 views)
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Yes, as our Silmarillion discussion progresses [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that we are putting meat on the bones of those skeletally sketched characters, and doing so without being fanfic about it.

It makes me waffle more than Denny's Diner in my character assessments. Brethil has me seeing Maedhros as well-rounded, Faenoriel made me rethink my dislike of Feanor, Wiz and Mac have me plotting on Morgoth's side, and Telain made me realize the Silmarils weren't necessarily a good idea to begin with.

I'm sticking to my guns, for now, that Sauron is bad and Luthien is good, but don't bet any money on those opinions lasting. (How can we even be sure that Luthien is beautiful, for example? Are there any authenticated photos to prove it, or just the biased words of Elvish chroniclers who pretty up everybody?)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 20 2013, 7:46pm

Post #91 of 97 (110 views)
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nobody [In reply to] Can't Post

 
nobody waffles more than manwe.


i'm okay with all your rest, curiousg, just as long as you don't start becoming a valar cheerleader.

for myself, i'm starting to think that the real hero of these tales is shelob.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 20 2013, 8:47pm

Post #92 of 97 (104 views)
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Manwe and choices [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
nobody waffles more than manwe.

It takes him a long time to come to a clear decision. Buttermilk,.... blueberry....eggs or fruit? very often he is at Denny's for days upon end, tying up the finest table. I understand Denethor is contemplating making him a Manwe-specific menu, which looks like this:

____________________________________



*TOAST*


____________________________________

i'm okay with all your rest, curiousg, just as long as you don't start becoming a valar cheerleader.

We must be on our guard. A sure sign Noruas Inc. has hacked CG's profile, and is seeking to undermine our faith in divinity and reality. The first step in tyranny.





Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 20 2013, 10:01pm

Post #93 of 97 (95 views)
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Manwe's choice [In reply to] Can't Post

Manwe, when asked if he wanted toast, or toast, consulted the Oracle of Delphi, sacrificed chickens and read their entrails, sought out Iluvatar in his inner mind, discussed it over tennis with Mandos, drew out Varda's thought over pillow talk, and Tweeted his followers for advice, coming up with the answer:

The middle one


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 20 2013, 10:14pm

Post #94 of 97 (91 views)
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Oh no - don't tell me Manwe has read my footer...// [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Manwe, when asked if he wanted toast, or toast, consulted the Oracle of Delphi, sacrificed chickens and read their entrails, sought out Iluvatar in his inner mind, discussed it over tennis with Mandos, drew out Varda's thought over pillow talk, and Tweeted his followers for advice, coming up with the answer:

The middle one


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Lothwen
Rivendell

Jun 21 2013, 9:01am

Post #95 of 97 (85 views)
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Better late than never [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry I didn't write in sooner!


Quote
What do we think of Fingolfin’s challenge? Is he motivated by despair, or on the contrary thinks this is worth a try only because he’s still blind to the potency of his enemy? Or was it a bold and risky idea which might have worked? Was there any chance he could win? If he had killed Morgoth, what do you think would have happened - would he merely have promoted Sauron to the #1 Public Enemy spot early?


I enjoyed reading everyone's suggestions on this. Smile
I don't think Fingolfin ever thought he could be victorious in a single combat against Morgoth; he was well aware Morgoth was a valar. It seemed more like he had lost his sense of reason, or that he simply no longer cared about what happened to himself, and the consequences of his act. Didn't it say somewhere he thought beleriand had been destroyed/ruined? I can't remember the quote exactly.

Sauron? I find this question quite interesting. If, for whatever reason, Morgoth had been killed ( can a Valar be killed?), Sauron would have been a far less-strong enemy. Would the Noldor have had the ability to defeat Sauron, seeing as he did not have his ring then?

Orcs- I loved this part, and sort-of assumed it was due to respect of Fingolfin's courage and maybe fear. (Of Fingolfin) I like to think it was a bit of remorse, but that's just because I liked Fingolfin; I guess orcs don't think that way!


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 21 2013, 9:39am

Post #96 of 97 (98 views)
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Facing Sauron as an improvement cf facing Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to the discussion Lothwen!
I'd not thought if that idea - that Fingolfin might think he's doing a service if he could remove Morgoth, even if Sauron steps up to the batting crease!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 23 2013, 10:15am

Post #97 of 97 (81 views)
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Some selected points from the 2009 read-through [In reply to] Can't Post

This time I'm really doing what I've meant to do in previous chapters I've "chaired" - go and look in previous read-throughs and summarise and select from what was said back then. It may seem a bit odd, but my favoured approach to so do that at the close of our this-time-around discussion. My thought is that that allows the 2013 discussion to evolve in the way that best suits the 2013 participants. I'm nervous that by bringing in earlier discussions too soon, things might turn into a literature review of existing opinions, rather than a new discussion.
Or it might seem that there is nothing else to say.
Or that we just have a rehash of the last time around, which would probably be quite boring for those who participated in it.

Conversely though, earlier discussions seem usually to have been every bit as good, though different from, the current round, and it's a pity to leave all that good material in the depths of the servers.

Quite aside from all those misgivings about how best to do this, In previous chapters, I simply didn't quite make it into the archives in time!

This time though, I have, and return a little dust-covered but triumphant. Here's some of what was said last time around - for contrast with 2013:

It seems that this chapter was last discussed in 2009. (I had yet to find theonering.net back then). The discussion was led by Saelind. Here's a selective summary with links. It's bound to be a +selective+ summary - please feel free to point out that I missed other relevant threads, or to comment on things in that 2009 discussion I left out here! Smile


2009 Thread #1 http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222208#222208
Considered the opening: what is the significance of Fingolfin's unsuccessful attempt to rally the elves for an offensive - does it produce a nice foreshadowing of doom? Why does Melkor's offensive run out of steam - because the other Valar doing anything to help the Allies? Opinions differed.

2009 Thread #2 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222209#222209
This took further a compare/contrast we touched upon this time around - between Fingolfin, rushing off to attack Morgoth, and Fingolfin's half-brother Feanor: both hot-headed sons of their Father? And why is Morgoth afraid? because he alone among the Valar has cut himself off from his source (Eru)?

2009 Thread #3 http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222378#222378
Covers The House of Beor and Emeldir the shield maiden (or shieldmatron?) who leads the people away to safety while a guerilla war is continued by a small group (including, significantly, Beren). Should the humans have retreated earlier? The conclusion seems to be "yes for their own sake" but "no if you see this as essential for setting up Beren and Luthien".
Dreamdeer, had some interesting thoughts about what it might have been like to stay behind with the guerillas:

Quote
What a nightmarish thing, to slowly watch your beloved homeland turn, degree by degree, into a horrible and haunted place! This, to me, has more impact than Mordor, or even on seeing Bag End trashed into an extension of Mordor, because you can imagine it happening right before your eyes--with the character you are there, watching the young trees grow up from a beloved old tree's stump and come up all wrong, watching your childhood playgrounds seethe with crawling things, watching the brook by which you proposed to your wife slowly become poisoned and foul. And trying desperately to hold on, trying to believe that if you can just stem the tide of evil you can heal your home, you can love it back to its true self, but each day it grows stranger to you, possessed, until one final, dreadful day you realize that the enemy has completely permeated it and now your homeland is Enemy, too.


2009 Thread 4 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222695#222695
Sauron, the first Minas Tirith and treachery. Some thoughts about how human the elves seem at this phase (mistrusting each other in this chapter) - they are much more passionate than those we see in the 3rd age LOTR. Because by then they've learned from experience and the Sil is that experience? Because the hot-heads inclined to engage Evil Valar in single combat aren't around in the Third Age?


2009 Thread 5 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222696#222696
Why are the "swarthy men" less reliable than the Edain? A tinge of racism? (Some of the Swarty Men +are+ loyal, of course - all the "B" ones). An idea from batik:

Quote
I think some of this (relations between Men and Elves as well as between the Edain and other Men) was *explained* in the last two paragraphs of the previous chapter. The Edain had been in the company of the Noldor which apparently allowed them to be a little more resistant to some of the pitfalls of life. Kind of similar to the Noldor having a bit of an advantage of other Elves due to their being in the company of the Valar. Of course this does not exempt any of them from making mistakes!


2009 Thread 6 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=222976#222976
Huor and Húrin
When they leave Gondolin, the discussion was asked:

Quote
“Maeglin… grieved not at all at their going, though he begrudged them the favour of the King, for he had no love for any of the kindred of Men;…Why? He’s never met any Men before this so why the antipathy?

Opinions differed: he'd met Men before (or heard of them via Dwarvish connections of his father). Or they were being allowed to depart when he was not.

Another question

Quote
Thus it was that the sons of Galdor were fostered in Brethil by Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of men in that time…”

led to this gem from Dreamdeer:

Quote
As my Grandma pointed out when my brother and I hit our teens, fostering makes a lot of sense--as soon as the kids reach an age where they think their parents are idiots, switch guardians. If Eol had abided by this custom he could have avoided a whollllle lot of trouble!

Wink

2009 Thread 7 - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=223100#223100
Among the wrap-up points I liked this (Saelind's question, with Dreamdeer's answer):

Quote
Does it bother you that Morogth is portrayed as this super unbeatable bad guy sometimes and at others almost human-like in his fears?

Quite the opposite. I loathe stereotypes and one-note characters, and don't know why people keep criticising Tolkien for his subtlety and complexity of characterization--when they're not accusing him of lacking it.

We have two paradoxical dooms here. One is that the Noldor cannot ultimately win, and deep down they know it. The other is that Morgoth cannot ultimately win, and deep down he knows it. Both awarenesses make those who have them ever plagued with doubt. In the Noldor it comes out as suspiciousness and fear-driven betrayals that in turn inspire more suspiciousness and more betrayal. In Morgoth it robs him of contentment--no matter what he attains, at what cost, he cannot enjoy it, but only obsess on guarding it still further against the day when he ultimately must lose it.


And finally a lovely sketch of Morgoth - (Dreamdeer again): "Morgoth probably doesn't like pie, but would gobble down somebody else's slice if he thought they liked pie."

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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