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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf in Dol Guldur. . . why he needs to show the greatest display of his power yet seen.
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JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 14 2013, 6:21pm

Post #26 of 37 (64 views)
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That'll Do It [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf is most powerful when he is saying things like, "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."


I don't think Gandalf singing "Kumbaya" to The Nine is going to sway them from their maliciously evil intent to rip him to shreds, even if he graduated summa cum laude from the Jean Luc Picard School of Winning Through Military Diplomacy.

Alone and under mortal threat from the minions of the Maiar Dark Lord incarnate, eliminating your opponent with extreme prejudice is the only reasonable response.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jun 14 2013, 6:22pm)


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 14 2013, 6:26pm

Post #27 of 37 (66 views)
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I guess "devices" is a word that can be open to interpretation. [In reply to] Can't Post

In Jackson's version, we have already scene Gandalf's butt handed to him 1v1 at Orthanc, so Saruman isn't necessarily unable to wield direct physical power - it just probably isn't the most effective way to get what he wants most of the time and doesn't appear to be his go-to knee-jerk approach to things. Smile


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jun 14 2013, 7:02pm

Post #28 of 37 (62 views)
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FOTR... [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman tells Lurtz; "the halfling has something of value to me, bring them to me alive and unspoiled."


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 14 2013, 7:36pm

Post #29 of 37 (59 views)
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True... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I didn't get the idea that in that scene with Lurtz that Saruman wanted the Ring for himself, it could have easily been interpreted as Saruman helping Sauron in his search. I just don't think the filmmakers made it explicitly clear that Saruman wanted the Ring so HE could be the Dark Lord.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 14 2013, 7:41pm

Post #30 of 37 (58 views)
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Yes, absolutely... [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we're not sure what was meant by "devices", it's definitely open to interpretation. I still would hope that Saruman's role in the battle is made clear when all is said and done. The Dol Guldur assault is maybe the only sub-plot where Jackson and Co. have a totally clean slate to work with, since Tolkien did not write about the assault in any great detail.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 14 2013, 7:58pm

Post #31 of 37 (52 views)
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I agree with you here [In reply to] Can't Post

If Gandalf is willing to use a shockwave blast to disperse the goblins, or split a massive boulder in half to stop the trolls, then it would make sense that he make use of all of his talents when dealing with his arch-nemesis Sauron, the one who is the entire reason he was sent to Middle-earth in the first place.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jun 14 2013, 9:10pm

Post #32 of 37 (48 views)
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^This [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh how I would love to see a representation of that great battle atop Amon Sul, especially as a means of making up for that dreadful Witch-King confrontation. Even if by PJ's standards Gandalf cannot beat the Witch-King, he should still *easily* be a match for the other wraiths.

Alas, I fear that we will not see anywhere near that which you are proposing. Sure, I expect to see him put forth his power, and I suspect that as the main character of the subplot he will make a notable contribution to the battle before he is supposedly knocked out and saved by Galadriel (which will happen since Galadriel has promised Gandalf that she will be there when he needs aid, don't forget). Again, it depends on the context of this. If they choose to go against the book and have Sauron play an active part in the battle rather than withdrawing from Dol Guldur, I wouldn't be too bothered if Gandalf accidently happened to run into Sauron and come off second-that, of course, is the obvious outcome and Gandy would not seek a direct duel with the Dark Lord purposefully. None of us need to see W-K and Gandy meet again-it was hard enough to bear the first time. Perhaps old Nine-fingers tries to seek out Gandy in the battle, sensing that of all the Council he is the most devoted to the cause of defeating the Shadow.

Oh how I hope that we will hear the Wizard's voice roll like the thunder, alike to when he fights the Wargs before the Fellowship's escape to Moria.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jun 14 2013, 9:14pm

Post #33 of 37 (51 views)
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Nope, Gandalf was attacked by all Nine [In reply to] Can't Post

Whilst Aragorn and the Hobbits encountered five.

Sorry, not meaning to be correcting or petty in any way, just making sure no one gets confused. Smile

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 15 2013, 7:11am

Post #34 of 37 (40 views)
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It was all Nine. They split after the confrontation. At dawn, Gandalf breaks away from the battle, [In reply to] Can't Post

4 persue him to keep track of his movements while the other 5 remain in the immediate vicinity, and that is why there are only 5 who attack the camp. It also, though not explicitly stated, gives an added cause for their relative lack of force after stabbing Frodo at the arrival of Aragorn. Five with The Witch King among them should have easily overwhelmed Aragorn and not bothered with retreat, even with Frodo already wounded, unless they were already diminished from some other strain. An all evening duel with one of the mightier of The Five Wizards a mere two days prior would well explain that.


The "against some I have not been tested" was in part an explanation of his capture by Saruman, and is further something of an allusion (especially in the movies) to his upcoming confrontation with that other embodied Maiar, The Balrog of Moria, a creature far more ancient and fell than any human wraith empowered by Sauron. The Nazgul of ROTK are much enhanced by a Sauron who is again grown very strong and whose Ring is also awake and seeking him, even though it is not yet in his possession. Sauron and all of his direct agents were less powerful at the time of The Hobbit.

In any event, Aragorn and Arwen are seen to temporarily best The Nine (at least five of them in Aragorn's case) in the films. Are we to believe that Aragorn or Arwen are mightier than Gandalf??? That is far more inappropriate.

In Reply To
I think there were only five. And, in any case, if we see Gandalf taking on all nine at Dol Guldur in TH, how would we have any concern about seeing him reluctant to face the Witch King in RotK? ("And against some, I have not been tested.")

It is not appropriate, long-term, for the "ultimate wizard battle in history" to take place in Film 2 or 3 of a 6-film series.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 15 2013, 7:19am

Post #35 of 37 (32 views)
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Exactly. It isn't a matter of what his most winning traits are, but of what he [In reply to] Can't Post

is capable of, even in this limited incorporation, and what he would be expected to do in such a situation as this.

In Reply To

In Reply To
Gandalf is most powerful when he is saying things like, "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."


I don't think Gandalf singing "Kumbaya" to The Nine is going to sway them from their maliciously evil intent to rip him to shreds, even if he graduated summa cum laude from the Jean Luc Picard School of Winning Through Military Diplomacy.

Alone and under mortal threat from the minions of the Maiar Dark Lord incarnate, eliminating your opponent with extreme prejudice is the only reasonable response.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 15 2013, 7:28am

Post #36 of 37 (30 views)
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Again, exactly. To have him not perform significant magic would be the ultimate WTF moment for [In reply to] Can't Post

any audience member who has seen An Unexpected and/or Fellowship and Zirak-Zigil in Two Towers.

Like it or not (and for the life of me I cannot fathom why a few of our friends seem to have a problem with the WIZARD exhibiting powers that are fully on display via his character in the source material novels and are entirely cannonical and appropriate. . . we are talking about Gandalf the Wizard and incarnate Maia, folks, not Farmer Maggot or Malbeth the Seer), Gandalf has been shown to have a number of battle applicable and useful magical abilities at his personal command, and it would be beyond baffling and hard to make sense of if, in a moment of great singular peril and on a mission of extreme importance, he suddenly and inexplicably opts for a melee only approach. Crazy

In Reply To
If Gandalf is willing to use a shockwave blast to disperse the goblins, or split a massive boulder in half to stop the trolls, then it would make sense that he make use of all of his talents when dealing with his arch-nemesis Sauron, the one who is the entire reason he was sent to Middle-earth in the first place.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 15 2013, 9:32am

Post #37 of 37 (40 views)
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And no, it has everything to do with not misrepresenting Gandalf as an impotent sage. [In reply to] Can't Post

He was very sagacious, Wisest of The Maia in his origins, but he was far from impotent. ". . . while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place. . ." ". . . Wolves won't get him!! That was an eye opener and no mistake, nearly singed the hair off my head, he did." And numerous instances of him causing flashes "like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder."

Gandalf, in the books and (to a slightly lesser degree at times, but still) in the films has both great Wisdom AND great paranormal power. The point here is not that his wise words should be dispensed of, it is that he is much more than a beared Aragorn in a hat. It was said of Saruman that, "a wild beast captured is not safe to approach, and Saruman has powers you do not guess." The orcs and wraiths of Dol Guldur should find the same to be true of Gandalf.

In Reply To
You cannot imagine how little I care to see Gandalf display massive power. That has nothing to do with the story of The Hobbit, which is about Bilbo, and everything to do with titillating the fans who go for the loudest explosions in preference to the best storytelling.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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