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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Worried about There And Back Again.


Jun 12 2013, 7:16pm

Post #1 of 17 (1252 views)
Worried about There And Back Again. Can't Post

One of the main reasons I personally really liked/slightly loved AUJ is because the length and pacing mimicked the grand adventure the company had set out on. Because the scene structure was quite drawn out and dense, when I rewatch the film I was constantly thinking of the numerous things in store. There really is quite a lot of actual ground covered in this film; Bag End, the "Wild" and trolls, warg chase, Rivendell, Misty Mountains, ordeal with Azog and pine trees and then finally we come to The Eagles and The Carrock. Personally I think the long length and density of the pacing really nicely compliments the journey.

No doubt DOS will do the same. Beorn's, Mirkwood, Eleven King's halls, barrel escape, Laketown, Desolation and then (I'm guessing) Erebor and Smaug. The sequel will for sure repeat the feel of a great adventure with dense pacing and a lengthy running time and I in no way mind this. IMO the film will be better from it.

But then what are we left with for TABA? If DOS is going to feel like a complete film it needs to end sometime after Bilbo riddles with Smaug. The problem is that DOS needs to end around here but TABA would suffer greatly from it. I fear that there is no way to perfectly split the rest of the book so that we are left with two complete feeling films. TABA is likely to start with Smaug's death but from that point on wards will it just be a much more small scale equivalent of the build up to the attack on Minas Tirith without an equivalent to the desperation and beauty of the Frodo and Sam storyline to help it? I have a feeling the film will feel very stagnant and dense with flabby add on scenes to pad out the needed length.

What do you guys think? :)


Jun 12 2013, 7:28pm

Post #2 of 17 (624 views)
TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

will most likely, from what evidence we have, host the Battle of 5 Armies at the very least.


Jun 12 2013, 7:28pm

Post #3 of 17 (604 views)
I see where you're coming from [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree I love the drawn-out pace of AUJ.

I think DoS should end with Smaug flying out of the mountain, destroying the side of it, and then end as he flies off towards Lake-town, maybe have him fly towards the camera in a burst of flame? It would seem cliche, but also set up for an epic opening for TABA.

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."

Misty Mountain Hop

Jun 12 2013, 7:34pm

Post #4 of 17 (608 views)
Here's an interesting question to follow up your question... [In reply to] Can't Post

What would they show in the teaser trailer for There and Back Again?

Very curious...


Jun 12 2013, 7:36pm

Post #5 of 17 (546 views)
Arguing and fighting? // [In reply to] Can't Post


'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


Jun 12 2013, 7:41pm

Post #6 of 17 (550 views)
Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

We're two years away and we don't even know where it begins, ends or exactly everything that will happen in-between. They haven't even finished shooting it yet.

I'm not even worried about DoS. All I know is that Freeman, Armitage, Cumberbatch and McKellan will be as awesome as ever, and we get to see the dragon. There's really not much more to add.

"And after every single person aboard your ship suffocates, I will walk over your cold corpses to recover my people."~John Harrison..?


Jun 12 2013, 7:50pm

Post #7 of 17 (520 views)
Billy Connoly on a Amroured Boar, 'Nuff Said! [In reply to] Can't Post


‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth


Jun 12 2013, 7:59pm

Post #8 of 17 (534 views)
I'm 100% certain they have this worked out.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... even if we can't see how they're doing it yet.

Just imagine the conversation: "We think it would be better as three films." "Three films? It's only one book, what ever you going to put in the third film?" "Don't know yet, haven't decided." There's no way the keepers of the purse strings would have agreed to that.

So, what I think is, don't worry. Sit back and enjoy the ride - and look forward to being surprised by what's coming. You don't have to know what's in the film before you see it, do you?

Misty Mountain Hop

Jun 12 2013, 8:04pm

Post #9 of 17 (481 views)
By no means is this knowledge necessary... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am merely interested in what else they might be including in the third movie. I am excited no matter what. It's just intriguing to think about what story line they will overlap with DG and the Battle.

I only brought it up to hear what others might think on this topic, not to say that there's "no" material or anything like that. I'm just very interested, having not read any of the extra material in the appendices.


Jun 12 2013, 8:11pm

Post #10 of 17 (433 views)
Sorry - I was answering the OP, and his/her worries... [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course it's intriguing - trouble is, it's a bit hard to imagine without knowing where DoS is going to end. Beyond the battle, and Bilbo's homecoming, which will have to be in the third film, of course. I wouldn't mind betting the trailer will have some exciting glimpses of the battle, without giving away too much story.

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 12 2013, 8:45pm

Post #11 of 17 (467 views)
Here's what I think they have to cover [In reply to] Can't Post

I've already said that I think Smaug will die at the end of DOS, not at the beginning of TABA (though we may well get a sort of flashback, a la Gandalf and the Balrog in TTT). You can read my reasons for that here.

So here's what I think would be left for the third movie if that happens. These plotlines will doubtless be intercut but I'm keeping them separate for clarity.

Bilbo/Thorin plotline:

1. Thorin's dragon sickness. The dwarves don't find out right away about Smaug's demise, but during his absence they establish themselves and begin to fortify the Gate. There is plenty of opportunity here for Thorin's character development (or devolvement) to make Bilbo more and more uneasy.

2. Bilbo finds and takes the Arkenstone and hides it even when he knows for sure what it is. Character development for Bilbo here - how will he justify this to himself? Will it be because of Thorin's increasing greed and instability?

3. Thranduil and his army (which I fully expect will include all Mirkwood Elves we have seen, so Legolas and Tauriel also) follow the dwarves. I don't know if they will chase them down because of their escape or for other reasons, but they will link up with with the Men of Laketown along the way.

4. The downfall of the Master and the rise of Bard. The Master will either be killed by Smaug in Jurassic Park style or will survive and then go into exile in the manner of the book. Either way, Bard takes over and has to try to save his people after the destruction of Esgaroth in the middle of winter. He will join forces with the Elves and they will all head to the Mountain to try and get their hands on some treasure.

5. The Siege of Erebor - Tension mounts as Thorin is faced with two armies but will not deal with them due to pride and dragon sickness. Things look very bad for the 14 inside the Mountain. Bilbo escapes and offers the Arkenstone to Thorin's enemies to break the stalemate. Thorin threatens to kill him for it. Dain arrives with his army....

Gandalf plotline:

1. I will assume that Gandalf will make his discovery of the Necromancer's identity either late in DOS or early in TABA. There will be another White Council meeting where he and Galadriel will convince Elrond and Saruman of the need to attack Dol Guldur. It's possible that if Radagast is killed, it is his death which provides the impetus for Saruman to agree.

2. The White Council attacks Dol Guldur. We will find out whether Sauron was behind Smaug (maybe) and Azog (most likely) and whether he uses the events at the Mountain as a planned diversion or merely takes advantage of them as a convenient distraction. He allows himself to be "driven out", but not defeated. I expect we may get a scene or two which provides us with a glimpse of Mordor and/or the Eye.

3. Bolg is introduced into the picture somewhere along the line (may also be a carryover/merge with Azog storyline). Gandalf hurries to the Lonely Mountain to warn them of the impending arrival of the goblin army (I assume he finds this out at Dol Guldur)

Plotlines Converge

1.Gandalf arrives just in time for the huge Battle of 5 Armies. This will be on scale with any of the battles in LOTR, and more varied, including so many different groups. It will be the big action climax of the film.

2. Thorin's burial and the aftermath. Dain becomes King Under the Mountain, Bard becomes King of Dale and begins to rebuild, Thranduil makes his peace and returns to Mirkwood, Bilbo says his goodbyes.

3. Homeward journey. Bilbo and Gandalf return home. We might get some scenes in either Thranduil's Halls or Rivendell so that the runes can be etched on Sting. I've been assuming Elrond would do this, but Thranduil might do it for Bilbo as part of his reconciliation. A stop is made at the Trollshaws to dig up the chest of gold on "long term deposit". Bilbo returns home to find an auction under way in Bag End and all his belongings spread far and wide.

4. Ending. Old Bilbo/Frodo bookend scene as Bilbo finishes the account in his book with a few lines about recovering his belonging and settling back in, possibly ending with something to do with Gandalf's arrival for the Party.


"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."


Jun 12 2013, 8:57pm

Post #12 of 17 (427 views)
scared [In reply to] Can't Post

im mentally trying to prepare myself now, becuase if you had a problem with the first film, the last is gonna be so far removed from the book it might send you mad!

the necromancer/wraith stuff is gonna sit so far from 'the hobbit' that unless you accept this storyline it will be unbearable, and it will all be original writing, and no details sourced from tolkien writing, if they pull it offf well i will personally at my hat, cos i can only see dangerous faux tolkine storylines on the horizon.

(though theactual hobbit stuff bo5a etc will surely be awesome)

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Jun 12 2013, 9:08pm

Post #13 of 17 (421 views)
Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Gandalf's investigation will take up the bulk of the White Council/Dol Guldur subplot for DoS. The resolution of the arc will probably come early in TaBA with the Council taking action against the Necromancer.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 12 2013, 10:13pm

Post #14 of 17 (309 views)
You might be reading in Flat mode [In reply to] Can't Post

Threaded mode shows how the conversation is flowing, and dormouse was replying to the original poster, not to you. If you change your viewing default to Threaded mode (go to Edit Profile, Display Settings) you can see the replies sorted.


Jun 13 2013, 1:30am

Post #15 of 17 (252 views)
.... [In reply to] Can't Post

We have three epic "battles" left to split between two movies. In chronological order...

-White Council drives Necromancer from Dol Guldur (July)

-Smaug attacks Laketown (October)

-Battle of Five Armies (November)

We can not assume Peter Jackson will strictly adhere to the timeline. We can assume the Battle of Five Armies will be in the 3rd film. But where the other two battles will fall is subject for debate.

I do not think it makes any sense for all three battles to be in the 3rd movie. IF it was up to me the White Council battle would definitely be in the 2nd movie. The only real question would be whether I wanted Laketown destroyed as the climax for film 2? Or would I send Smaug towards Laketown to end film 2, and open film 3 with the attack on Laketown?


Jun 13 2013, 8:03am

Post #16 of 17 (197 views)
I don't think you could open a film with something as.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... awe inspiring as Smaug attacking Laketown. If they follow the book, that's such an iconic scene, so vast and so important to the story, that it must surely be the climax of DoS.

I'd say they've foreshadowed that already in the little clip of Bard saying something along the lines of 'if you waken this monster you will destroy us all.' If we hear him say that in DoS, then I think we'll also see it happening.


Jun 13 2013, 8:08am

Post #17 of 17 (207 views)
Bingo [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say they've foreshadowed that already in the little clip of Bard saying something along the lines of 'if you waken this monster you will destroy us all.' If we hear him say that in DoS, then I think we'll also see it happening.

Epic point for the film to end, or maybe with the birds bringing news of it to Thorin. That would be a good ending!

Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
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