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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why not Ian Holm in The Hobbit?
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silneldor
Half-elven


Dec 23 2007, 2:32am

Post #26 of 44 (141 views)
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Bingo! [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Bungo, i believe you have itSmile.
START THE PRESSES!
...Gad, this is fascinating to think on. I can see that book opening nowSmile.

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of Manw let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manw Slimo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'

Well! What do you know, it snowed.
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell







entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 23 2007, 3:09am

Post #27 of 44 (124 views)
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You could be right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't watched FOTR in over a year, so my memory might be faulty. Gandalf is aware of Gollum because he tells Frodo that the name Baggins is known to the enemy and there's a brief flash of Gollum being tortured. Non-readers don't know that Gollum has been held by Aragorn, and that he escaped from Thranduil's guards. I do believe the movie tied all it's narrative thread fairly well, so even though some parts were omitted there weren't any gaps in the story told by the movies.

I intend to watch all three next weekend, so in the meantime maybe someone who knows the movies better than me can chime in.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Bestica
Bree

Dec 23 2007, 3:17am

Post #28 of 44 (120 views)
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Good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, but even a 17 year difference would still put them looking a lot closer in age than any change makeup and whatnot could effect on Holm.




"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep"

Robert Frost


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 23 2007, 6:45am

Post #29 of 44 (131 views)
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Basically what happened [In reply to] Can't Post

(forgive misspellings/misquoting, very late at night)

Is that after Bilbo's party, Gandalf starts suspecting Bilbo's ring to be Not Good, and he tells Frodo to "keep it secret, keep it safe".

He then goes to Minas Tirith and reads the scrolls of Isildur, and reads that the One Ring has marks that have disappeared, but that it is "a secret now that only fire can tell."

He goes back to the Shire, (we are not told how much time has passed), meets Frodo, throws the Ring in the fire. Once the markings come up, his suspicions become clear and he tells Frodo that it is the One Ring and that if Sauron got it, the world would be, well, doomed. Frodo says they'll hide it, and says "No one knows it's here, do they, Gandalf?"

Gandalf says: "There is one another who knew that Bilbo had the Ring. I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum. But the Enemy found him first." (cut to torture scene) "I do not know how long they tortured him, but admist the endless screams and delaying babble, they discerned two words," and then Gollum says "Shire, Baggins." Frodo then offers Gandalf the Ring, Gandalf doesn't take it, and then Gandalf tells Frodo to get the heck out of the Shire and make for the village of Bree. He then tells Frodo that he'll be waiting at the inn off the Prancing Pony. He then talks about having to see Saruman... talks about leaving the name of Baggins behind him... some nice stuff... then Sam is found. And that's about it.

So no, Gandalf never says that he found Gollum. But he *knew* that Gollum said this. So, to the perceptive movie-goer, they can wonder how Gandalf knew that. We know that Gandalf knows because he talked with Gollum. Gandalf doesn't mention that Aragorn hunted with him, but he doesn't leave it so it is not a possibility. So it is completely possible to tie that story in.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 23 2007, 6:54am

Post #30 of 44 (112 views)
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Thanks. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".


silneldor
Half-elven


Dec 23 2007, 4:50pm

Post #31 of 44 (117 views)
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Truly, I had already assumed such. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elementary my dear Watson.
Sir Ian needs to be in this movie to have a real continuity here at least in the narration part. I haven't seen Sir Ian lately so i do not know if he could play Bilbo in the movie. Age can be determined just by the eyes and make-up can't change that.

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez


May the grace of Manw let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manw Slimo
By El~Cugu

From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'

Well! What do you know, it snowed.
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell







SacredOak
The Shire

Dec 23 2007, 11:49pm

Post #32 of 44 (91 views)
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Bilbo was 40 [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo was around 40 when the Hobbit took place, with a little make up and proper lighting, Sir Ian could totally play it.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 24 2007, 12:33am

Post #33 of 44 (93 views)
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Bilbo was 50. [In reply to] Can't Post

If by "makeup and proper lighting", you mean "tape for an artificial facelift and lots of dim scenes", many people will disagree. I'm glad you found the young Bilbo in FOTR convincing, but many people did not. I thought it passed muster simply because they were brief scenes and not closeups. And if The Hobbit continues the Jackson trademark of very tight closeups for principal actors, it will be even more difficult to pull off.

Ian Holm is 76. By the earliest time The Hobbit could go into filming, he'll be 78. He's had some health problems in recent years. The role of Bilbo in The Hobbit is a physically strenuous one; he rides ponies, faces trolls, fights spiders, rides a barrel down a river, and does a fair bit of walking, creeping, and hill climbing besides. By the time the filming starts, Sir Ian may be neither willing nor able to play the part. Also, while the other Sir Ian has been very vocal about his desire to play Gandalf again, we haven't heard any comments from Ian Holm about reprising his role as Bilbo. We don't even know if he wants to.

I loved him in the role of Bilbo, but I have doubts that the illusion of being nearly 30 years younger could be maintained for an entire movie. That's why I have proposed this solution. This way, instead of just replacing him, he could return to the character, without being required to fulfill the rigorous shooting schedule of the young Bilbo actor.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea


Dec 24 2007, 1:10am

Post #34 of 44 (85 views)
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Nice [In reply to] Can't Post

Gramma has posted a very similar suggestion before and I have always liked it!

Where's Frodo?


SacredOak
The Shire

Dec 24 2007, 1:11am

Post #35 of 44 (83 views)
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50 not 40 oops [In reply to] Can't Post

I had no idea Ian Holm is 76 -- yeah, that would be a stretch then.

But if Bilbo was 50 during the Hobbit, not so much of a stretch, if Holm could handle the stress.

I just think the movie wouldn't go over as well if they start changing actors -- like the Harry Potter movies -- it worked ok for Dumbledoor, given that his role in the movies have been shortened compaired to the books, but if they changed any of the other regulars, it just wouldn't come off well. I'm afraid they'd have the same trouble with the Hobbit.

My 2


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 24 2007, 2:09am

Post #36 of 44 (89 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

I must have missed that somehow. And here I was thinking I was keeping up with all the Hobbit talk! But great minds think alike, after all. Wink

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 24 2007, 3:37am

Post #37 of 44 (82 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew I'd seen the idea here before, though I couldn't remember who proposed it. But I don't think it had been elaborated at such length till you did it.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 24 2007, 3:39am

Post #38 of 44 (88 views)
Shortcut
For instance... [In reply to] Can't Post

here.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 24 2007, 5:17am

Post #39 of 44 (84 views)
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Aha! Thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

And gramma - that's a great idea you had! Cool

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 24 2007, 1:17pm

Post #40 of 44 (83 views)
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Bilbo is a very minor character in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand why some movie-firsters might identify strongly with Ian Holm for Bilbo, but he's only in the movie in the beginning and the end. Silverlode's solution would work brilliantly, IMO, far better than an actor in his 70s trying to behave as if he's in his 30s (Frodo, although 50, was far younger than that since hobbits live longer than men).

As I mentioned above, Ian Holm to me is as much Frodo as Bilbo since I first heard him on the BBC radio production as Frodo, many years before the movies were made. I have no problem changing actors since I have a long-cemented vision of the characters formed from reading Tolkien for 30 years. None of the actors replace my vision of the characters, so I have no problem switching out actors so the role can be filled with someone who is more appropriate.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Dec 26 2007, 1:03pm

Post #41 of 44 (61 views)
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Perfect :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always thought that he could be narrating the film and also be telling the story to a pack of hobbity children like he does at his party, but having him in Rivendell "someplace quiet where I can finish my book" would be delicious! I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE!!!

Ahh... I smell fodder for another homepage poll!



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Dec 26 2007, 1:04pm

Post #42 of 44 (52 views)
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Holm's just gotta be in The Hobbit! Finish the journey // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists

My DragonCon 07 Report

My JRRT Map Moot Report


kaitlin
Registered User

Dec 26 2007, 8:53pm

Post #43 of 44 (61 views)
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i don't see what the problem is [In reply to] Can't Post

we're talking a/b weta workshop here. is there anything they can't do?


Tim
Tol Eressea


Jan 14 2008, 1:55am

Post #44 of 44 (49 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

With respect there are things they can't do, as stated so well in earlier posts. I thought Ian Holm made a wonderful Bilbo, but he's not young enough to play the part, and that means more than he just looks too old. I like the idea of Ian narrating, just as long as the difference between him and the younger Bilbo isn't jarring.


In Reply To
we're talking a/b weta workshop here. is there anything they can't do?


Great, where are we going?

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