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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 28 2013, 12:50pm

Post #26 of 45 (238 views)
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He never completely rejected the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Note that in the published Silmarillion when Beor and his people first met Finrod they called him Nóm, which is "wisdom" in their language, and they named his people Nómin, the Wise.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


CuriousG
Valinor


May 28 2013, 1:00pm

Post #27 of 45 (225 views)
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You've thought up a whole new line of Tolkien merchandise. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 1:06pm

Post #28 of 45 (237 views)
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Spoilsport! [In reply to] Can't Post

I will be leading that chapter, and was about to ask about this!


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 28 2013, 1:28pm

Post #29 of 45 (217 views)
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Sorry // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


telain
Rohan

May 28 2013, 2:58pm

Post #30 of 45 (219 views)
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I like the comparison to the Cold War [In reply to] Can't Post

...because there is this uneasiness that fills the chapter and it wouldn't take much to set everything in motion, but it doesn't happen...yet.

Bringing in CuriousG's point re: "disappearing Elves" -- that is a great point (and I like the investigative journalist approach, noWizardme). Although Beleriand is thinly populated, isn't Nevrast supposed to the land of mingling? I find it very difficult to believe no one noticed, or was curious about, or found out where everyone was off to.

Maybe I simply have trouble believing all those "final" and "absolute" statements that Tolkien is want to include. Are you saying no one told their second cousin (twice removed) "Oh, yeah, we're off to Gondo...lin... Oh. Probably shouldn't have told you that. Please don't mention that I said anything to Turgon"

And I hope you enjoyed geography with Telain -- I much appreciate (and enjoy!) the comment...


telain
Rohan

May 28 2013, 5:45pm

Post #31 of 45 (213 views)
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Maybe vague, but maybe not unwise... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Yet another obscure, delphic prophecy! It's almost comical. Why doesn't Ulmo just say, "A Man named Tuor will visit you in the future with my blessing and a warning from me to leave Gondolin. And he'll marry your daughter, and their son will convince the Valar to rescue Beleriand from Morgoth."


There is perhaps a time when too much information is a bad thing. What if evil things found out about Tuor and made things more difficult? (But it would be very difficult for orcs to go looking for someone with a size 11 shoe...) What if Turgon didn't see the wisdom of Ulmo and tried to prevent things from happening? He would have enough information to make sure it didn't. When one has access to all that information -- and prophecy to boot -- it encourages things to become decidedly more difficult. Ulmo made it possible for Turgon to recognize the right person and he'll let fate and curiosity do the rest.


Quote
What I really like about the narrative is how close their relationship appears to us even without being told the other bits about how close they are, almost like mother and daughter. And another cool thing is that while Melian initially presses Galadriel to spill the beans, and bluntly tells her that she can see she's still concealing important information, she doesn't press her after that. It shows Melian has a lot of respect for the G-girl and it reflects well on both of them.


Definitely. I almost liked Melian then...Wink But the lack of detail about their relationship actually filling in the detail -- brilliant.


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 5:52pm

Post #32 of 45 (213 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

For one thing, Turgon might be a bit unhappy with the thought that some day, one of a yet unknown, but mortal, race will claim the hand of his only daughter. And things might go very wrong even with this prophecy - Morgoth still is at large and about. Even Ulmo cannot see all ends.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 28 2013, 8:15pm

Post #33 of 45 (239 views)
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ulmo, foresight, vagueness, and thorin seaweedshield [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it's definitely argueable how much any of the valar can see -- with certainty -- down the road.

now that we have the edain in the mix, who have the gift to shape their own fates (and affect others'), it probably gets a lot more cloudy for them.

perhaps ulmo was not more specific about the bearer of the warning from nevrast because he couldn't be certain it would be tuor. the edain have such a hard time understanding the messages of the valar to begin with.

perhaps he couldn't even be certain it would be a member of the edain. what if the bearer of that warning was thorin seaweedshield?

by keeping it vague, ulmo might have been doing his best to protect turgon and his people. so that the future could bend with circumstance, but still achieve the desired goal.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 28 2013, 8:16pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 11:42pm

Post #34 of 45 (209 views)
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Thorin Seaweedshield... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it's definitely argueable how much any of the valar can see -- with certainty -- down the road.
now that we have the edain in the mix, who have the gift to shape their own fates (and affect others'), it probably gets a lot more cloudy for them.
perhaps ulmo was not more specific about the bearer of the warning from nevrast because he couldn't be certain it would be tuor. the edain have such a hard time understanding the messages of the valar to begin with.
perhaps he couldn't even be certain it would be a member of the edain. what if the bearer of that warning was thorin seaweedshield?
by keeping it vague, ulmo might have been doing his best to protect turgon and his people. so that the future could bend with circumstance, but still achieve the desired goal.




....oh dear....what a picture....Cool

I like what you and Sador say here, that by not providing all the information the circumstances can 'happen' without resistance and the ultimate goal achieved (and true, Ulmo not being able to see all ends.). It also will give verisimilitude to the event when it does actually transpire, as it has that air of 'prophecy'. (Reminds me of how Dune's Bene Gesserit operate a bit, by seeding prophecy to serve their aims later on, and the vagueness of it giving them wiggle room.)

Also true that Ulmo has a harder time messaging with the Edain in general.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Grey Havens


May 29 2013, 1:44pm

Post #35 of 45 (188 views)
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Prophecies with wiggle room - love it [In reply to] Can't Post

It would allow prophecies to co-exist with chance and free will,rather than turning life into a sort of rail shooter, where one is guided along inexorably by destiny/fate and the only player options are whether you get to the next level and how much you score.

It would absolutely make sense for Ulmo to set up multiple options from bringing the news to Gondolin, so that something works out even if one of his intended heroes has a freak gardening accident, and another takes up hairdressing rather than hero-ing.

Later, all the options that didn't work out tend not to be remembered - certainly not once everything has been reduced to a tale. So, Ta-Da!, it looks like it always had to work out just the way it did work out.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2013, 12:57am

Post #36 of 45 (144 views)
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Ulmo's competence and maturity makes the rest of the Valar look bad... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait, you're doing Silmarillion now? And you're already past the Fëanor chapters? This is what I get for taking a break. Unsure

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 3 2013, 1:24am

Post #37 of 45 (139 views)
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Oops! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wait, you're doing Silmarillion now? And you're already past the Fëanor chapters? This is what I get for taking a break. Unsure






The good news is NoWiz is posting the next great chapter discussion this week! Smile Should be fun!

I agree quite completely with your point about Ulmo. He keeps the faith, as it were, letting Arda play out the Song with some well-placed wet nudges (not to be confused with wet noogies) and has long range plans.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 3 2013, 1:32am)


sador
Half-elven


Jun 3 2013, 7:16am

Post #38 of 45 (126 views)
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Welcome back! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good to see you around again! How was your break?

This discussion was relatively short - most chapters had only one or two discussion posts; and the threads are still "alive" - so if you have time, you can add to them!
Just give me a heads-up if you do so - otherwise I might not get around to read them...


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 3 2013, 2:28pm

Post #39 of 45 (115 views)
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Welcome back, Faenoriel!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to see you back! Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Grey Havens


Jun 3 2013, 3:59pm

Post #40 of 45 (116 views)
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There's a listing of the early discussion threads... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Here http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=597275#597275 if you want to look at the earlier discussions in this read through.

Glad you can join us!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 11:58am

Post #41 of 45 (102 views)
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Cold War and uneasiness: a reader poll [In reply to] Can't Post

How many people on first read thought that all the realms we read about in "Of Beleriand and Its Realms" would wind up destroyed? As Telain says, it's foreshadowed here (or bluntly predicted by Finrod), but as Wiz says, it's a Cold War, and those can go on forever with give and take but no ultimate destruction. And would an author go to such great lengths to describe so many realms only to wipe them off the map? (literally) That didn't seem likely.

For myself, I'll say I wasn't sure what would happen. It seemed that some were doomed but some could have survived, or maybe over time they might have been abandoned (real-world Mayan cities were abandoned, not seized in conquest). Maybe the Elves, who seem so superior in LOTR and were able to defeat Sauron in the Last Alliance, won the Silmarils and went back to Valinor? I didn't know. Even the upcoming "Ruin of Beleriand" is a bit of hyperbole: it's just the northern part that's ruined while the majority remains unconquered. What did other people think would happen on first read up to this chapter before all heck breaks loose in the next? *spoiler* Sly


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 2:07pm

Post #42 of 45 (97 views)
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One big question is [In reply to] Can't Post

why don't we hear about the other Noldor in Beleriand, or even what the Sindar are up to, like Cirdan? Does Cirdan ever try and send ships to Valinor to ask for aid on the behalf of the Sindar, who had done nothing wrong and were suffering under Morgoth? Don't Fingon and Fingolfin have any interesting stories to tell, or the irascible Sons of F--who have they mistreated lately, and how do they order their realms, which seem the most complex of all of them?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:48pm

Post #43 of 45 (92 views)
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Would love some more stories... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
why don't we hear about the other Noldor in Beleriand, or even what the Sindar are up to, like Cirdan? Does Cirdan ever try and send ships to Valinor to ask for aid on the behalf of the Sindar, who had done nothing wrong and were suffering under Morgoth? Don't Fingon and Fingolfin have any interesting stories to tell, or the irascible Sons of F--who have they mistreated lately, and how do they order their realms, which seem the most complex of all of them?




...especially about F-troop. With their complex relationships and agenda that's a whole other book!

I think Cirdan was honor-bound because of the prophesy to stay put...and he did, with loyalty and service the whole time. I wonder if 'sailing for help' to tug at the skirts of the Valar was more of a Noldor thing - the Moriquendi has just done their own thing from the beginning, and had some trepidation about the Valar, so maybe they would not have been so quick to mount an expedition to an unknown place (to them) to ask for help?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 4 2013, 11:34pm

Post #44 of 45 (76 views)
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sounds like possible Symposium topics to me! [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I'm considering...

"'See Amros': Amrod Son of Feanor's Life in the Shadow of His Brother's Index Entry"

And I imagine Fingolfin, who just seems like an interesting character to me, has tremendously interesting stories to tell. And for all Caranthir's vitriol, surely he has fascinating accounts of dealings with the dwarves...

And would it have hurt to get a few more witty lines from Maedhros?

But I suppose one does have to stop writing (or in Christopher's case editing) the book at some time.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:11am

Post #45 of 45 (105 views)
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Those looming Indexes... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Personally, I'm considering...
"'See Amros': Amrod Son of Feanor's Life in the Shadow of His Brother's Index Entry"
And I imagine Fingolfin, who just seems like an interesting character to me, has tremendously interesting stories to tell. And for all Caranthir's vitriol, surely he has fascinating accounts of dealings with the dwarves...
And would it have hurt to get a few more witty lines from Maedhros?
But I suppose one does have to stop writing (or in Christopher's case editing) the book at some time.




A fascinating dynamic you've uncovered there Telain!!!! One can only hope those footnoted brothers weren't actually life-sized cardboard cutouts from the local theaters, moved around for convenience, taken inside when it rains.

'Fascinating' Dwarves don't come around for a couple of thousand years though. Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

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