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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Fall of Arthur Edition
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CuriousG
Valinor


May 29 2013, 12:32pm

Post #26 of 43 (103 views)
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I'm surprised [In reply to] Can't Post

He was not dubbed Thorin the Red Hot, on account of all his smithing over a hot forge.


acheron
Gondor


May 29 2013, 4:10pm

Post #27 of 43 (111 views)
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yikes [In reply to] Can't Post

This is hard. Only one I'm reasonably sure about is ■enkke as "think".

ȝalownesse could be related to "gallow"? So something like... "deathly"?

tauȝten might be "tight"/"tighten"? Related to "taut"?

traw■e is probably "truth".

comlyng might be "comely"?

I feel like I should get something out of aluisch but nothing is coming to mind. The others I'm not seeing anything.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 9:36pm

Post #28 of 43 (105 views)
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The u in aluish is what's throwing everyone I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

Often it is not pronounced "yoo" or "yuh" in Middle-english. It is less obvious in aluish than it is in reuerence for instance. I think it's because the modern equivalent word begins with a different vowel than we see here.

Comlyng is as it sounds. The trick is to think of what it might mean today.

I'll throw up (bleh) the answers later tonight after band practice.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 10:06pm

Post #29 of 43 (83 views)
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No? // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He was not dubbed Thorin the Red Hot, on account of all his smithing over a hot forge.




Oh.... I thought that's what that name was all about. Silly me.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 10:07pm

Post #30 of 43 (82 views)
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Enjoy band practice // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I'll throw up (bleh) the answers later tonight after band practice.




we will await your ... shared ...enlightenment. Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor


May 29 2013, 10:42pm

Post #31 of 43 (97 views)
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Oh, what, as in... [In reply to] Can't Post

Elvish?? Aha....

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


acheron
Gondor


May 29 2013, 11:48pm

Post #32 of 43 (104 views)
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ohhh [In reply to] Can't Post

You may have gotten it there elaen!

I knew to think of the "U" letter as a /v/ but still wasn't getting anything. But the "elf" vowel was indeed "a" sometimes, as in, well, "Gandalf". (Or "Alfred" and a number of other names.)

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 30 2013, 4:13am

Post #33 of 43 (108 views)
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~~ ANSWERS and further discussion ~~ [In reply to] Can't Post

After many views and a few brave attempts it is time to bring this edition of MEVC to a close.

As with the Valentines' MEVC I'll give Tolkien's gloss for each word, and the glossary it appears in: (SG) for Sir Gawain, and (ME) for A Middle English Vocabulary. Since we don't know the context of the words outside of the list, and since a gloss is not (strictly speaking) a definition, a full point is awarded for grasping a word's essence (as usual).

According to Tolkien, according to original context:

1. logede, pa. t. dwelt. [OFr. logier.] (ME)
2. ■enk(ke), v. to take heed, remember; ■. of (on, upon), be mindful of, remember. [OE. ■encan; ■ōhte.] (SG) also (ME)
3. nygromansye, n. necromancy, black magic; (used vaguely as) impious nonsense. [OFr. nigromanc(i)e.] (ME)
4. ȝalownesse, n. fairness (of hair). [(From ȝalow, yellow), OE. geolu, geolw-.] (ME)
5. haldynge, v. holding (up), maintaining. [OE. hßldan.] (ME)
6. maȝtyly, adv. powerfully, forcibly. [OE. mŠhtigl´ce.] (SG) also (ME)
7. tauȝten, pa. t. taught. [(From teche(n), to teach), OE. tǣchan, tǣhte, tāhte.] (ME)
8. traw■e, n. fidelity, truth. [OE. trēow■.] (SG) also (ME)
9. comlyng, n. stranger, foreigner. [OE. cuma+-ling.] (ME)
10. aluisch, adj. elvish. [OE. Šlf.] (SG)

SirD's Notes:

1. Occasionally in ME (perhaps also OE) words are made past tense by the suffix "de."
2. Usage is more often in the sense of "seem to" than "think," though clearly the word is related to v. to think.
3. Interesting word. These days it is used almost exclusively to describe magical rites involving the dead.
4. Yellowness -- golden? Tolkien show's consistency by using the word "fair" to describe hair colour.
5. This is my own gloss distilled from Tolkien's exhaustive listing for words related to "holde."
6. Mightily captures it I think.
7. Another distillation of Tolkien's more extensive gloss.
8. Straight forward enough, though the meaning is much broader than given, especially in (ME).
9. Comling... Earthling, Easterling, Shirling... makes sense.
10. Thank you acheron for reminding us of the meaning of Gandalf.

A few general notes:

First this list was quite challenging... even though I wrote the list, a few of the words stumped me until I looked them up again. As such I really appreciate the brave souls who took a stab at some or all of the words.

Secondly, and perhaps this is more of a niggle than anything, but some of the instances of ā, and ǣ above should also have the symbol for a short vowel above what is written (which makes no sense to me whatsoever). I was unable to find some of the symbols Tolkien used in his books on the net.

Finally, with this group of words I gained a deeper appreciation for the thought that went into Tolkien's word choice, and the great impact his early studies an efforts had on his writing.

Scores:

I'm going to forego marking this one... As Young Mr. Grace used to say, "You've all done very well." (Besides, you now have the info to make your own score, if you are so inclined.)

Perhaps in future we should approach the MEVC as a group effort? In any event I do hope you enjoyed contending with Middle English as Tolkien did.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 30 2013, 12:10pm

Post #34 of 43 (71 views)
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Sure rules out time travel, doesn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Going back in time and not understanding a word people say.


acheron
Gondor


May 30 2013, 1:04pm

Post #35 of 43 (95 views)
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Nice. [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes sense now that I see the answers. Wink

I should have gotten the "yellow" one.

Is ā̆ the symbol you're looking for? N.b. that might not render on all browsers but it looks ok to me: a with both a macron and breve above it.

Edit: ok, after posting it doesn't look good anymore. In the edit window it looks fine though. Unicode magic like that is not always supported well.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams

(This post was edited by acheron on May 30 2013, 1:05pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 30 2013, 4:24pm

Post #36 of 43 (73 views)
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Fascinating! [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially "comlyng" meaning "stranger" or "foreigner", the "cuma" has dropped out of our language. I can see it being akin to "changeling", though.

"ȝalownesse": "yellow", makes sense now! I can also see "sallow" in that, which would indicate a paleness of color.

That "logede" took me a while to figure out.

I like trying to puzzle these out on my own, then seeing how everyone else fared; it's interesting to see how many we all know, but how different our answers are for the less-obvious ones!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 1:29am

Post #37 of 43 (74 views)
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That's it! [In reply to] Can't Post

"breve and macron"... good to know. Thank you.

ǣ̆ and ā̆ render correctly in EI but not Chrome.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 31 2013, 1:35am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 1:43am

Post #38 of 43 (68 views)
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trying again now in chrome [In reply to] Can't Post

Small a with macron and hacek (which kind of looks like a breve) above = ā̌

Small Š with macron and breve above = ǣ̆


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 2:02am

Post #39 of 43 (73 views)
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Comlyng [In reply to] Can't Post

to me reads as come+ling (is that too obvious?) as in "a person who did come (from somewhere else)."

I think ȝalownesse is neat too mostly because its OE. root starts with the letter g (geolu, geolw). Of course ȝ = gh (though not exactly) but here again we find the relationship between g, i, y, and j.

You may recall our discussion of ientyle (gentle or gentile) from a previous MEVC. Isn't it wonderful that the French say "jaune" for "yellow?" And OE "geolu/geolw" doesn't seem too far from English "gold" nor "glow."

By the way, I thought your guess for aluisch made a lot of sense.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 2:16am

Post #40 of 43 (67 views)
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Regarding haldynge [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it seems to play more as a noun, as in a secure location, a keep, a stronghold, and so on, than a verb. When it is a verb it is more akin to propping up, supporting, etc than merely holding something (as in one's hand).

I like the a in the root word halde (as opposed to the o in holde) because it evokes the OE and contemporary English word "hand." (However hald(e), hold(e) and hand, hond appear to have been interchange in OE and ME.)

Thanks for playing elŠn <--- is that right?


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 31 2013, 2:17am)


acheron
Gondor


May 31 2013, 11:25am

Post #41 of 43 (67 views)
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They show up fine in mobile safari on an iPhone too [In reply to] Can't Post

It was Firefox earlier that was showing it ok in the edit window but not in the final post.

I had to look up "breve" by the way. Wink hopefully I will remember it from now on.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Brethil
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 7:08pm

Post #42 of 43 (49 views)
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Old school fun [In reply to] Can't Post

All in all I wish had gotten more - but at least I did get a few! (was really going on memory here. JUST found my Gawain copy late last night.) So thank you for the post SirDennis!
That 'sallownesse' was a tough one; and kudos to you Elaen Angelic for divining 'elvish'...its easy to get caught up the soft-ish sound of ui in the center and it throws one off!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor


May 31 2013, 7:42pm

Post #43 of 43 (88 views)
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Well, it sort of made sense to me [In reply to] Can't Post

since there are placenames in the area in which I live which have similar structure eg High Halden- which is a village, but was originally a fortified settlement or Holding. I live in a part of England which was very heavily colonised by the Anglo Saxons and in particular, the Jutes. This is reflected in a lot of place names eg there are a lot which end in -inge or-indge. I love piecing together things like this, although often I add 2+2 and make 5!

PS and yes- the spelling of my username is correct- why use a plain old vowel when you can use a diphthong?Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"

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