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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Durin's Ring, Durin's Bane, Durin's Folk, the malice of The Enemy, The Ring of Thrain, and amazing flashback potential
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 20 2013, 8:43pm

Post #26 of 44 (235 views)
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Sarcasm alert! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 20 2013, 8:47pm

Post #27 of 44 (236 views)
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I agree in part [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
case suspicion that Peter, Fran and Phillipa really just want to make the stories their own, and have some notion that they can tell the tale better than Tolkien (i.e. a host of major alterations and false inventions).

If they are not going to get into the history of The Dwarves whom this film is centered around, make the connections between this film set and The Rings Set (real connections like Rings, Moria, Necromancer etc., not silly trivial ones like pounding throw away lines that pop up in both trilogies) and do a fairly faithful, if expanded when required, telling of The Necromancer vs. White Council business, they should have left it at one movie, MAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE two, and been done with it.

All the "rise of the Necromancer" stuff is superflous. They could just as easily have followed the actual appendices, had Gandalf and The Wise already know, show the tide in Greenwood shifting overwhelmingly to Mirkwood, and had Radagast tell Gandalf, "The Enemy is growing stronger, Gandalf. He is not lying idle, void of new ambition and resigned to being contained as The Council had hoped. It is as you feared. He means war. On The Elves, on the all the free people. He is poisoning all the forest, and he his power has already grown too great for me to withstand. Spiders dared to attack Rhosgbel itself. His minions will be at Thranduil's doorstep ere long. . . ." Etc. The Council convenes, deems war really is the only option. Tada.

Certainly no need for Azog chasing everyone all over creation etc. etc. etc. Half assed hybridization isn't the way to go. Either keep The Hobbit, THE Hobbit (ship sailed already), or actually stick to the Appendices with all the awesome moments and information they yield. That means a Balrog in Moria (in keeping with the Rings movies), Thrain's Ring being of great interest to Sauron and a concern of Gandalf's, etc. etc. etc.

In Reply To
That seems like WAY off the mark for THE HOBBIT movies! Maybe mention the ring a tad somewhere but no way should it get a long prologue with all this Durin business.



What I simply disagree with is that they should do any of the dwarf history now. IMO it's a little too late, and as you said they could have easily fit the Balrog and maybe a TINY bit of durin history (I still think it is unnecessary) in the Moria scene but definitely not a prologue for Desolation of Smaug. The only complete difference so far is Azog alive still but I think he was very good for pacing and adding some intensity. Everything else fits in realistically and overall the main parts are in the movie. It's not like these are unfaithful representations. We haven't seen what is in store for the next two movies and who knows maybe the movie didn't work too coherently when they tried to do JUST the straightforward novel. They don't do these things for no reason.


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 20 2013, 8:49pm

Post #28 of 44 (235 views)
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Well I'm going to go lay down now haha [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sarcasm Alert! Tongue



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 20 2013, 8:51pm

Post #29 of 44 (224 views)
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Now that you know my evil intentions [In reply to] Can't Post

if your ead my comment, it wil feel rather different.


Oh, and nice rest. Cheers.Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 22 2013, 5:34am

Post #30 of 44 (188 views)
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It isn't too late. Among other things, Azog's survival has yet to be explained, nor why [In reply to] Can't Post

The victoriuos Thorin never bothered to check and assure, once the Dwarves had won the battle, that the dragged of Azog was indeed finished. The best way to deal with the latter and perhaps with both is to have some scene where Thorin and Possibly Dain, in flashback, do enter Moria. . . behold the great Demon, come away grey with fear and never again speak of the encounter. This would also explain the raging fire and hell-glow in the gate in the first film, which almost certainly was intended to be Balrog fire.]


As to Durin's history. . . we wouldn't be going back to the first Age. Just the at least tangentially relevant matter of who Durin was, as he is mentioned so often in this first film, the dreadful fate that befell both he and Moria, Ancient, Sacred and long lost to the dwarves in this first film as well, but with no explanation of how all happened, and, very importantly, it establishes the presence of The Demon of Terror and Might IN Moria and gives some back history to him, so that when someone sits down and views the films collectively, they don't arrive in Fellowship and find themselves completely puzzled about this ancient Demon of Dread who suddenly resides in Moria but was never alluded to as having dwelt there in all the times the place was mentioned and glimpsed before.

In Reply To

In Reply To
case suspicion that Peter, Fran and Phillipa really just want to make the stories their own, and have some notion that they can tell the tale better than Tolkien (i.e. a host of major alterations and false inventions).

If they are not going to get into the history of The Dwarves whom this film is centered around, make the connections between this film set and The Rings Set (real connections like Rings, Moria, Necromancer etc., not silly trivial ones like pounding throw away lines that pop up in both trilogies) and do a fairly faithful, if expanded when required, telling of The Necromancer vs. White Council business, they should have left it at one movie, MAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE two, and been done with it.

All the "rise of the Necromancer" stuff is superflous. They could just as easily have followed the actual appendices, had Gandalf and The Wise already know, show the tide in Greenwood shifting overwhelmingly to Mirkwood, and had Radagast tell Gandalf, "The Enemy is growing stronger, Gandalf. He is not lying idle, void of new ambition and resigned to being contained as The Council had hoped. It is as you feared. He means war. On The Elves, on the all the free people. He is poisoning all the forest, and he his power has already grown too great for me to withstand. Spiders dared to attack Rhosgbel itself. His minions will be at Thranduil's doorstep ere long. . . ." Etc. The Council convenes, deems war really is the only option. Tada.

Certainly no need for Azog chasing everyone all over creation etc. etc. etc. Half assed hybridization isn't the way to go. Either keep The Hobbit, THE Hobbit (ship sailed already), or actually stick to the Appendices with all the awesome moments and information they yield. That means a Balrog in Moria (in keeping with the Rings movies), Thrain's Ring being of great interest to Sauron and a concern of Gandalf's, etc. etc. etc.

In Reply To
That seems like WAY off the mark for THE HOBBIT movies! Maybe mention the ring a tad somewhere but no way should it get a long prologue with all this Durin business.



What I simply disagree with is that they should do any of the dwarf history now. IMO it's a little too late, and as you said they could have easily fit the Balrog and maybe a TINY bit of durin history (I still think it is unnecessary) in the Moria scene but definitely not a prologue for Desolation of Smaug. The only complete difference so far is Azog alive still but I think he was very good for pacing and adding some intensity. Everything else fits in realistically and overall the main parts are in the movie. It's not like these are unfaithful representations. We haven't seen what is in store for the next two movies and who knows maybe the movie didn't work too coherently when they tried to do JUST the straightforward novel. They don't do these things for no reason.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Slim
Rivendell


May 22 2013, 5:47am

Post #31 of 44 (186 views)
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I like this idea [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The victoriuos Thorin never bothered to check and assure, once the Dwarves had won the battle, that the dragged of Azog was indeed finished. The best way to deal with the latter and perhaps with both is to have some scene where Thorin and Possibly Dain, in flashback, do enter Moria. . . behold the great Demon, come away grey with fear and never again speak of the encounter. This would also explain the raging fire and hell-glow in the gate in the first film, which almost certainly was intended to be Balrog fire.]

This sounds really great!

I would welcome more Dwarf history flashbacks, but I have no idea how they are going to fit it in and make it relevant. I'd appreciate something worked subtly into the dialogue at some point though...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 22 2013, 6:26pm

Post #32 of 44 (167 views)
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I think either a tracing of the ill luck of the Dwarf Ring starting with Durin, as [In reply to] Can't Post

narrated by Gandalf, some other fireside in Beorn's perhaps history of Durin, Ring, Balrog et al, should Bilbo perk up enough to ask, "who the hell is Durin," whom the dwarves name so often. . . maybe in Beorn's they sing the "World was Fair in Durin's Day. . . The Shadow lies upon his tomb in Moria in Khazad-Dum," song there as opposed to the Erebor song of An Unexpected.


Most likely way I see though is in The Third Film, in trying to dissuade Balin from going to Moria, Dain recounts the tale Thorin never shared of glimpsing the Demon, but Balin dismisses it as delusion or Dain resorting to horror story legends to restrain him in Erebor, or the warning with the flashback to Durin's slaying is related to Balin by Gandalf, with Balin again dismissing it as "Ancient history," that happened, "a Thousand years ago," whilst Gandalf frowns and shakes his head in grim suspicion just as he does when telling Balin's younger cousin Gimli, "I would not take the road through Moria unless I had no other choice."

All of these would serve to elucidate dwarven history, give more proper history to the Balrog, and properly set up what is coming in Fellowship, now also Film IV in the series.

In Reply To

In Reply To
The victoriuos Thorin never bothered to check and assure, once the Dwarves had won the battle, that the dragged of Azog was indeed finished. The best way to deal with the latter and perhaps with both is to have some scene where Thorin and Possibly Dain, in flashback, do enter Moria. . . behold the great Demon, come away grey with fear and never again speak of the encounter. This would also explain the raging fire and hell-glow in the gate in the first film, which almost certainly was intended to be Balrog fire.]

This sounds really great!

I would welcome more Dwarf history flashbacks, but I have no idea how they are going to fit it in and make it relevant. I'd appreciate something worked subtly into the dialogue at some point though...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 23 2013, 6:20am

Post #33 of 44 (162 views)
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Billy Connely [In reply to] Can't Post

I can just see it now ... with a heavy scottish accent to Balin when he wants to go to Moria... " Are ye daft man? Yuw con't goo back thar! Yoo're gonna die man!" or something similar ...


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Arannir
Valinor


May 23 2013, 3:29pm

Post #34 of 44 (137 views)
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First Minutes of DoS [In reply to] Can't Post

That would make a great prologue... although I would like it to be told by Ian Holm... since they started the Bilbo/Frodo story-telling I would like them at least stick with it now, although Frodo was pure EE for me.

They could actually stop the prologue BEFORE the Gandalf / Thrain part and first cut back to Thorin and company, possibly with Thorin starring at the key.

Then Gandalf tells the rest of the tale in Beorn's house (the confrontation between Gandalf and Thrain in Dol Guldur).


Somehow I have the feeling though that we would have heard about an actor cast as Durin by now... so I could also live with the story of Durin explained in some sentences while the story of crazed Thrain is told.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on May 23 2013, 3:30pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 23 2013, 9:10pm

Post #35 of 44 (122 views)
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Lol. Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can just see it now ... with a heavy scottish accent to Balin when he wants to go to Moria... " Are ye daft man? Yuw con't goo back thar! Yoo're gonna die man!" or something similar ...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 23 2013, 9:16pm

Post #36 of 44 (117 views)
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Thanks, and I also like the idea about the completion of the tale in Beorn's [In reply to] Can't Post

home.

In Reply To
That would make a great prologue... although I would like it to be told by Ian Holm... since they started the Bilbo/Frodo story-telling I would like them at least stick with it now, although Frodo was pure EE for me.

They could actually stop the prologue BEFORE the Gandalf / Thrain part and first cut back to Thorin and company, possibly with Thorin starring at the key.

Then Gandalf tells the rest of the tale in Beorn's house (the confrontation between Gandalf and Thrain in Dol Guldur).


Somehow I have the feeling though that we would have heard about an actor cast as Durin by now... so I could also live with the story of Durin explained in some sentences while the story of crazed Thrain is told.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 24 2013, 3:41am

Post #37 of 44 (107 views)
Shortcut
I like it too [In reply to] Can't Post

More the better with the Dwarven back story


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 24 2013, 5:02am

Post #38 of 44 (103 views)
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*friendly smile* [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

In Reply To
More the better with the Dwarven back story


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


May 24 2013, 1:26pm

Post #39 of 44 (94 views)
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Either works [In reply to] Can't Post

The moment we see in The Fellowship of the Ring is a very powerful moment as we know, but if you do either of these option it adds even more IMO. Not doing so doesn't kill the moment per say but the missed opportunity to not add to that moment and give the viewers more reason why that was such a powerful moment would stink.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 24 2013, 11:22pm

Post #40 of 44 (84 views)
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It is a powerful moment, that is true. In a vaccum though, particularly with the matter of Moria raised [In reply to] Can't Post

in The Hobbit, it courts trouble.

The problem of history is one only those already in the know truly get, as yet. Moria and the Demon who lay claim to it have a deep, horrifying, powerful history, and are a very frightening and powerful thread in the greater tapestry of the history of The Third Age. The Balrog is no random brute like The Stone Giants, or even a random relic of horror like Shelob. . . he is a fundemental player, one of the MOST fundemental players in the history of The Dwarves. Slayer of Durin the foremost of the reincarnating Forefather Kings, the Chief ancestor of The Longbeards, The First among all the dwarven race. He is the profaner and desecrator of Sacred Khazad-Dum, most ancient and Hallowed of The Dwarf Kingdoms. He is one of the few beings of evil in Middle-Earth capable of truly inspiring fear in even the High Elves, and of posing a potential threat to Lothlorien itself, and his is the Evil that has made Moria a place of dread where none but the wicked will go (and even they with a fearful reverence). It makes for a much richer tale, knowing at least some of this, and it greatly adds to the understanding of how momentous the coming confrontation with The Great Wizard Gandalf is, not just for the Fellowship, but quite probably for the larger picture of Middle-Earth.


Interesting as all that is, I would agree that it wouldn't be necessary information EXCEPT!, for the fact that the spectre of Moria has been raised in these vastly expanded Horror films. We hear about it, and how sacred a place it is. We learn that it was long abandoned, but we don't know why. The orcs certainly did not do it, they just decided to enter its already deserted halls before the dwarves (under the half-mad Thror in this account) made the unwise decision to attempt to return. We SEE it, we see Azog dragged off into the very gate the Fellowship will come running out from, and with a suspiciously familliar demonic fire alight in the background of the hall. We know the Dwarves defeat the orcs, but Don't do what they came to do (enter and reclaim Moria), and don't go in to track down Azog and insure that he is good and dead. All this and yet no solid mention of The Balrog, who IS going to emerge in Fellowship in all his horror. . . there is a gap. A congruity failing that even a casual viewer is likely to notice. Where did The Demon come into the picture? What is he doing there now, and why didn't we ever hear about him before? Dwarves roused him, but every indication in Fellowship is that Balin and his company were NOT the dwarves responsible, and that (rightly enough) he was a problem in Moria before Balin got there ( it would completely ruin the rich history to suggest it was Balin's company that disturbed him in any event), and besides. . . it doesn't make sense that the dwarves tinkerings would rouse him if an entire army of maurauding orcs and a great battle all over the mountainside didn't get his attention.

If they do not address it, they will have created a continuity gap in sore need of filling. . . one which the Appendices they love to allude to provide a brilliant and excellent answer for.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


May 25 2013, 3:26am

Post #41 of 44 (88 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

If they don't touch upon it there will be a gap. It's something that a few words allow to be fixed. They don't even have to go into a super amount of detail. The simplicity of what you wrote before covers it and I think would please me.



(This post was edited by Elessar on May 25 2013, 3:27am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 25 2013, 6:57pm

Post #42 of 44 (67 views)
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I hope so to. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile It would be such a tacky oversight if they just leave it entirely untouched. Of course, we won't know whether or not they have made the oversight until the theatrical of film 3 is released. lol

In Reply To
If they don't touch upon it there will be a gap. It's something that a few words allow to be fixed. They don't even have to go into a super amount of detail. The simplicity of what you wrote before covers it and I think would please me.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


May 25 2013, 7:14pm

Post #43 of 44 (61 views)
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Patience [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, the having to wait is going to suck. I really hate waiting but for this I guess we will have to practice out patient skills. lol



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 6:34pm

Post #44 of 44 (79 views)
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Too true. lol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yeah, the having to wait is going to suck. I really hate waiting but for this I guess we will have to practice out patient skills. lol


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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