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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Mysterious Meeting

Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 15 2013, 6:13pm

Post #1 of 13 (1300 views)
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Mysterious Meeting Can't Post

You know, I'm not so convinced that it is Thorin or Strider that Gandalf potentially meets in Bree.
In fact, I'm not entirely sure that Gandalf comes to the key at that Dol Goldur dungeon.

There are some revelations at Bag End that pose potential difficulties in arranging a meeting between Thorin and Gandalf.
For instance, we learn that Thorin has been to a meeting with the Dwarven clans and solicited the aid of Dain, which he declined.
In addition, Gandalf gives Thorin the key from his father. Gandalf apparently did not have the key or any knowledge of it in their
earlier meetings, hence Thorin's astonishment. When could Gandalf acquired it? He could not have found a particular mad dwarf at
dol goldur and taken it from, as the fate of Thorin's father and the revelation of Dol Goldur's evil would be well known to Gandalf
early in the film. And Gandalf would saying nothing to Thorin about this or be surprised when Radagast implores that darkness
gathers at the ancient fortress? This leads me to believe that the key does not come from the Dwarven DG episode but from an earlier
encounter. Could Gandalf really have met with this dwarf at Bree? But then again, this would provide its own questions, like why would
this kingly dwarf go East having surrendered his key and why would he give it to Gandalf in the first place? Thoughts?


jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 15 2013, 7:02pm

Post #2 of 13 (518 views)
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film story [In reply to] Can't Post

having to relearn the passage of events for the film timeline does my head in!!!

thats why i dont really care too much and will just pay my money and watch it for what it is and go back home to obsess about the original canon

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Angharad73
Rohan


May 15 2013, 8:11pm

Post #3 of 13 (446 views)
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"It was given to me for safekeeping" [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't that, roughly, what Gandalf tells Thorin at Bag End? That could mean a lot of things, and Gandalf does not say when it was given to him, only that it was Thrain who gave it to him. Perhaps Thrain thought that he might not come back from wherever he was planning to go and happened to meet Gandalf before he ended up at Dol Guldur, so he gave him the key then, to keep it safe. And when Gandalf met Thorin in Bree, he thought of the key but did not give it to Thorin then because he was not sure if the whole expedition would actually come together?

And with a few tweaks of the timeline (maybe there was a longer interval between the meeting in Bree and when they all got to Bag End to accommodate Thorin meeting with Dain and the other Dwarves), which is nothing new, everything can be made to fit (if you don't look too closely).


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 15 2013, 9:03pm

Post #4 of 13 (398 views)
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Much of this has already been discussed [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that Gandalf must have acquired the map and key from Thrain when he was dying and too sick to recall his own name or the name of his son, else Gandalf could have brought them to Thorin ages ago. Thrain, instead of being a prisoner of the Necromancer, might have been captured by Orcs secretly in his service. Gandalf found the Dwarf and killed or ran off the Orcs without discovering their connection to the Necromancer. Thus he thought that Dol Guldur was still (again) abandoned.

It wasn't until after Gandalf met and spoke with Thorin in Bree that he realized that the old, dying Dwarf must have been Thrain. He put two and two together and intuited that the map and key were intended for Thorin.

The real problem with involving Dain at this stage is that, if Thorin had been in recent contact with his cousin in the Iron Hills, why is he ignorant of the current conditions between Eriador and the Iron Hills?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

May 15 2013, 10:00pm

Post #5 of 13 (367 views)
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Book Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf tells Thorin, after Thorin asks him how he came by the map and the key something to the effect that "he (Thrain) didn't know his own name and he never told me yours so on the whole I think I ought to be praised and thanked." So obviously Gandalf had some thinking and sleuthing to do in order to find Thorin. It doesn't appear that Gandalf had the map and key when he met Thorin in Bree.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 15 2013, 11:14pm

Post #6 of 13 (334 views)
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Chances are that Gandalf did have the map and key in Bree [In reply to] Can't Post

Even ninety years after encountering Thrain, Gandalf still was not certain as to who he was until after meeting Thorin. It wasn't until then (remember that Thorin approached Gandalf, not the reverse) that it all came together. He probably did have the map and key with him since Gandalf does not seem to have ever had a permanant residence, so what else would have have done with them? As he said, once he had ascertained that they were for Thoriin, he made his own determation as to where and when to present them to him.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 16 2013, 8:32am

Post #7 of 13 (246 views)
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According to the timeline on Wiki [In reply to] Can't Post

  • 2850: Gandalf enters Dol Guldur and confirms that the evil thereby found is indeed Sauron returned; Thráin II, broken, raving, and dying, gives Gandalf his map and key to be passed on to his son, Thorin Oakenshield

  • March 15, 2941: Thorin Oakenshield meets with Gandalf the Grey at the Prancing Pony in Bree, the Quest of Erebor begins




  • It just didn't dawn on him probably until after he met Thorin and decided to present it to him at the apropriate time.
    Also, if I may speculate, he gave it to Throrin at this time as they were setting off in a ceremonious fashion, but also to push through his selection of Bilbo as "the Burglar".

    We won't know for sure if PJ has changed this timeline until it all plays out.


    Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
    Vote for Pedro!

    (This post was edited by Yngwulff on May 16 2013, 8:35am)


    Otaku-sempai
    Half-elven


    May 16 2013, 2:32pm

    Post #8 of 13 (199 views)
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    The Wiki timeline leaves important details out... [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thrain either forgot in his madness, or was too sick to tell Gandalf, his identity. He told the Wizard to pass the map and key to his son, but did not give Gandalf Thorin's name before he died. I repeat, Gandalf did not figure out that the dying Dwarf was Thrain until after his first encounter with Thorin.

    'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


    MaeBeth
    Bree


    May 16 2013, 6:05pm

    Post #9 of 13 (167 views)
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    Wait a sec [In reply to] Can't Post

    Why would Strider be there? I thought TH took place 60 years before LOTR...Is he that OLD?!Tongue

    It is strange how we hold on to pieces of the past while we wait for our future -Matched


    elaen32
    Gondor


    May 16 2013, 8:17pm

    Post #10 of 13 (144 views)
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    Yep... [In reply to] Can't Post

    Aragorn is 87/88 during the events of LOTR and then goes on to reign for 120 years, dying, I think, at the age of 208. As one of the Dunedain, he had an especially long life, though for a Dunedain of his Age he was especially long lived. But in Numenor such life spans were common place and longer

    "Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


    AinurOlorin
    Half-elven


    May 17 2013, 4:20am

    Post #11 of 13 (110 views)
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    Otakau, in a filmverse that has a mute, unnamed Glorfindel, in which Azog survived the Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

    battle and the Dwarf against Orcs war and hunted Thorin clear across Eriador and into Rhovanion, and in which Galadriel seems at times to be the supervisor over The Maiar, a little change like Gandalf already knowing Thrain doesn't even rate as a problem for me. lol Unsure

    In Reply To
    Thrain either forgot in his madness, or was too sick to tell Gandalf, his identity. He told the Wizard to pass the map and key to his son, but did not give Gandalf Thorin's name before he died. I repeat, Gandalf did not figure out that the dying Dwarf was Thrain until after his first encounter with Thorin.


    "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

    "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


    Yngwulff
    Gondor


    May 17 2013, 5:33am

    Post #12 of 13 (105 views)
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    Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Thrain either forgot in his madness, or was too sick to tell Gandalf, his identity. He told the Wizard to pass the map and key to his son, but did not give Gandalf Thorin's name before he died. I repeat, Gandalf did not figure out that the dying Dwarf was Thrain until after his first encounter with Thorin.



    Thrain was so torutred he probably didn't know is own name at the time let alone his son's name.
    Gandalf had the epiphany after he met Thorin at Bree.


    Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
    Vote for Pedro!


    Otaku-sempai
    Half-elven


    May 17 2013, 8:12pm

    Post #13 of 13 (97 views)
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    When is a change not a change? When it is only rumored. [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Otaku, in a filmverse that has a mute, unnamed Glorfindel, in which Azog survived the Moria battle and the Dwarf against Orcs war and hunted Thorin clear across Eriador and into Rhovanion, and in which Galadriel seems at times to be the supervisor over The Maiar, a little change like Gandalf already knowing Thrain doesn't even rate as a problem for me. lol Unsure



    Well, the Wiki entry is discussing Tolkien's chronology, not Jackson's. In any case, you are bringing up a change that may not have happened. We don't know that film-Gandalf had recognized Thrain.

    'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

    (This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 17 2013, 8:14pm)

     
     

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