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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Every good Story DESERVES a Littl' Embellishment?"
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Old Toby
Gondor


May 13 2013, 6:59pm

Post #26 of 45 (402 views)
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I really love your posts Bomby [In reply to] Can't Post

For one thing, they make me more than occasionally perplexed as I try to fathom what it is you're driving at. On the other hand, posts like this are so crystal and succinct without being excessively wordy, I find them a welcome relief whether or not I agree with them. In this particular one I totally understand your point and probable frustration, as I am on the same page with you. In any case, I find your posts to be anything but boring!

Yeah, I don't think you are in any way discouraging dialogue or opposing points of view, and I don't think that's what you're saying here, but the constant hammering does get tedious. Especially since it's dealing with something we love. And I think the two T-shirts idea is great!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 13 2013, 8:23pm

Post #27 of 45 (389 views)
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Interesting Hypthosis [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting that you mention this. Admittedly, it's been awhile since i've read some Tolkien literature to great
extent, but i've recently perused very short fragments of key narative, and, I must say, that its simplicity and
levity is something that one can appreciate. It's funny because I think tastes transform a bit and I find myself
drawn more to a style that doesn't bludgeon the reader with themes when it doesn't have to. In terms of fantasy, I think this
pithiness often lends itself to the believability of the world. But there are various ways for fantastic literature to be believable and compelling,
I would imagine Evil.

But this hinges on the second point you identify, where DoS will have less difficulty in its adaptation to the screen in that the tone
will be something that the filmmakers will be able to more easily identify. I think there could be more of a comfort level in the immedicacy
of the events in the latter half of the story, which will lend itself to the strengths of this particular film production. I'm not sure there is
that immediate comfort level with some of the more nuanced, subtle aspects of the literature, thus we get Gandalf speeches about kindness and love
or the altogether eradication of such subtle aspects in the name of always having to make something out of putative nothingness. But sometimes,
it may be the nothingness which tries not to be something that is able to capture the imaginations of both reader and viewer. But
I am not totally sure of this. Anyhow, I think we can look forward to a wonderful experience in DoS and TaBa in that the material
will suit the strengths of this production, even more so than that very interesting and entertaining first rendition AUJ.


(This post was edited by Dwarvenfury on May 13 2013, 8:26pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 11:26pm

Post #28 of 45 (335 views)
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Urp? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Then, as he had said, the dwarve's good feeling
towards the little hobbit grew stronger every day.

There were no more groans and grumbles.
They drank his health, and they patted
him on the back,
and they made a great fuss of him;
which was well,for he was
not feeling particularly
cheerful.

He had not forgotten to look at the mountain,
nor the thought of the dragon,
and he had a shocking cold.

For three days he sneezed and coughed
and he could not go out, and even
after that?

... his speeches
at banquets were limited to
"Thag you very buch."

Bomby

"Channeling"
Bilbo?


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 14 2013, 12:56am

Post #29 of 45 (305 views)
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Generally agreed with this [In reply to] Can't Post

The alterations to LOTR were mostly due to the fact that they simply could not pack each and every detail into three nearly 3-hour movies. I certainly would have loved to see Bombadil and Goldberry, and the Barrow-wights, and Ghan-buri-ghan, and all of the other omissions. But there simply was not enough time in the space of three films.

By contrast, most of the changes to The Hobbit thus far are nothing if not padding. When I heard they were going to be making three movies instead of two, I remember wondering how in the world they were going to find enough material to stretch that dinky little book into three films. Never in a million years did I think PJ was going to insert Azog into the story and basically start creating his own sub-plots within Tolkien's story. I was a supporter of the idea to include the Dol Guldur/Necromancer stuff, but PJ and Co have managed to mangle that quite a bit too (compressing thousands of years into a few months, putting the Nazgul in tombs). And from the sounds of it, the roles of Beorn, Bard, the wood-elves, and even the Master of Lake-town are supposedly going to be beefed-up significantly from the novels, so expect a lot more fan-fic in the next couple films.

On a side note, I like the bunny-sled. The sheer absurdity of it makes me laugh my tail off Wink


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 14 2013, 1:06am

Post #30 of 45 (290 views)
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I admit [In reply to] Can't Post

that the tone of the Hobbit is not one that everyone enjoys. But I'm just happy that I do. It's simple, it's fun, it's dangerous, it's epic, it's whimsical.

I think that with the story naturally getting darker in tone, it will line up more with what PJ is looking for in a LOTR prequel, and it will match more with the Dol Guldor subplot being added.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




demnation
Rohan


May 14 2013, 1:13am

Post #31 of 45 (316 views)
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That's the problem with these movies(and fans), isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen a hundred different interpretations of the books, and none of them are as good as my own.

Use Well the Days

(This post was edited by demnation on May 14 2013, 1:16am)


demnation
Rohan


May 14 2013, 1:31am

Post #32 of 45 (282 views)
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Maybe he had a person that said [In reply to] Can't Post

"You know PJ, LOTR was kind of a fluke, so it doesn't really matter how far you take TH?" Wink

Use Well the Days


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 14 2013, 1:34am

Post #33 of 45 (288 views)
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I don't think its the inclusion of the White Council/DolGuldur material thats the problem [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think that with the story naturally getting darker in tone, it will line up more with what PJ is looking for in a LOTR prequel, and it will match more with the Dol Guldor subplot being added.

I think its the script that was written for that material. There is no source material for them to draw upon and it shows. Personally I loved the tone of Baggend, and some of the more book oriented scenes, what I didn't care for was the OTT feel and tone of Jackson's deviations and additions, that to me didn't add anything worth while. If the additions had been more rooted more in what Tolkien wrote and less in what Jackson made up. I might have bought into them a bit more. But they just had a totally different tone, feel, and direction than the rest of the canon material.

I truly hope the script for the next 2 films feels a bit more cohesive with the material that is from Tolkien.Unsure




Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 14 2013, 1:41am

Post #34 of 45 (274 views)
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Let It Be [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a great song, and so true. That's a good mantra to say if there is nothing that can be done.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 14 2013, 2:00am

Post #35 of 45 (261 views)
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Ziggy, you&Bomby are Simpatico!/// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dik-dik
Lorien


May 14 2013, 8:53am

Post #36 of 45 (231 views)
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same here... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think its the script that was written for that material. There is no source material for them to draw upon and it shows.


I am not against a darker tone either, but the deep and dramatic lines in the Dol Guldur storyline mostly stick out for me like a sore thumb. One more thing I'm worried about is the scope of the Battle of the Five Armies, which I believe I've head in an interview or two hinted at as rivaling the battles of RotK in scope. That doesn't sit well with me at all - though it's admittedly but rumour for now...?

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


jtarkey
Rohan


May 14 2013, 9:09am

Post #37 of 45 (230 views)
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This is very true [In reply to] Can't Post

My problems with the film stem mainly from a film making standpoint. For me, it is obvious that the transition from 2 films to 3 was not a smooth one. Scripts are written carefully, with a beginning, middle, and end. Certain emphasis is placed on certain parts of a story to make it cinematicaly engaging. It is also important, even in a 3 film story, to make all of your plot points connect, even within a single film in the series. Story beats and character arcs should still come full circle, even if the story isn't necessarily finished.

In AUJ, the seams really show. I can tell that they stitched certain things together in order to fill a 3 film narrative, which leaves some story beats and arcs incomplete. For me, it's a sign of indecisiveness, and lack of confidence in 2 scripts that the writers spent years fine tuning. It's also a lack of confidence in the source material, which is a real shame.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Roheryn
Grey Havens

May 14 2013, 10:21am

Post #38 of 45 (231 views)
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Hear, hear! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. And whether or not the embellishment we get is the embellishment we agree with, why not just enjoy the ride? More fun that way, to me, at least. The world is full of an infinite number of what-ifs, and there's no point in dwelling on them.

And think about it:

If the movie strictly followed book canon (just considering up to the end of Chapter 6):

-- We'd have 13 pretty much interchangeable grumpy-garden-gnome Dwarves.
-- The Dwarves would have been caught one by one by the trolls, because they were stupid enough to walk up one by one to the trolls' fire and stand gawking.
-- We'd have a talking purse.
-- The Elves would be singing "tra la la lally, here down in the valley", etc.
-- Amongst their belongings the Dwarves would be lugging with them clarinets, fiddles, flutes, viols, a drum, and a golden harp.
-- Bilbo would frequently be carried by the Dwarves.
-- The Eagles would talk.
-- Goblins would sing things like "But, funny little birds, they had no wings! O what shall we do with the funny little things?"

And that's just a partial list of the things we would have, which, in my mind at least, would move us even farther from the LOTR-world we already knew. You could make an even longer list of the things we wouldn't have, starting with a much more complex and heroic Thorin Oakenshield than we ever see in the book (at least, through Chapter 6).


So, yes, I am happy that canon isn't followed strictly. I think we've got a much richer and more interesting movie this way. Though I really, really wish we could convince PJ to stick to book canon for the Carrock bathing scene... Wink


Arannir
Valinor


May 14 2013, 10:43am

Post #39 of 45 (240 views)
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With all the Boyens-negativity... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I think this is a modest, yet unapologetic response by her. Really glad to have her on this projetcs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMmyct6koyg



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 14 2013, 12:27pm

Post #40 of 45 (214 views)
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Just for the record... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If the movie strictly followed book canon (just considering up to the end of Chapter 6):

-- We'd have 13 pretty much interchangeable grumpy-garden-gnome Dwarves.
-- The Dwarves would have been caught one by one by the trolls, because they were stupid enough to walk up one by one to the trolls' fire and stand gawking.
-- We'd have a talking purse.
-- The Elves would be singing "tra la la lally, here down in the valley", etc.
-- Amongst their belongings the Dwarves would be lugging with them clarinets, fiddles, flutes, viols, a drum, and a golden harp.
-- Bilbo would frequently be carried by the Dwarves.
-- The Eagles would talk.
-- Goblins would sing things like "But, funny little birds, they had no wings! O what shall we do with the funny little things?"



- I have no problem with the Great Eagles being able to talk.
- If we first convert the goblins' songs into chants, are they any worse than the one that Jackson's Goblin-king sings?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 14 2013, 1:26pm

Post #41 of 45 (203 views)
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Rho Rides to the Rescue! [In reply to] Can't Post

You Rank Right UP
there with Goldberry!

(at least for Bomby)


(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 14 2013, 1:28pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 14 2013, 5:15pm

Post #42 of 45 (189 views)
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no problems with [In reply to] Can't Post

 
talking eagles.... could be done in the manner of smaug, or they could be in conversation with gandalf, but their voices not heard (they're off in the background), or gandalf could report back on a conversation we didn't see.

i'm +fine+ without the talking purse, +so+ happy we have individual dwarves with distinctive personalities and histories, +so+ glad we got the scene with the dwarves attacking the trolls..

i suspect bofur does tote his clarinet around, and dwalin was playing a viol-ish thing at bag end, which he presumably brought ('tho bilbo might have some family intstruments lying about).

would have been neat to see armitage-thorin play the harp, and it needn't have been that large (plus, he could have made bofur carry it). frankly, though i saw the film 17/18 times in the theater, i didn't catch on 'til late that the branch that thorin uses in his fire-fight is the same one that he used to earn him the epithet, "oakenshield." which had me a bit dumbfounded, as i was wondering where it was stashed while they were travelling. presumably he would have it on him, but there's never any branch-sized bulge that i can see under his coat or anything, and he never uses it before then.

i think pjackson made some wonderful +improvements+ (sacrilege, i know) to the tale, and i'm thankful he felt free enough to take the risk.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Rostron2
Gondor


May 14 2013, 7:47pm

Post #43 of 45 (172 views)
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If we could actually run a statistical analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

And find out how many of these Hand-ringers, Canon-lawyers, armchair directors actually exist, I think we would discover that they are a VERY small number. The Internet amplifies the voice of almost small group. Marshall McLuhan called this out in his media theories long ago.

We shall never know, but they are almost certainly a tiny minority of a billion dollars worth of ticket buyers.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 14 2013, 9:24pm

Post #44 of 45 (169 views)
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Marshall McLuhan and Alvin Toffeler were Right! [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Medium is the Message" MML

But Bomby tendz... to agree with Alvin Toffeler's
"Future Shock" theory...

1. Acceleration .....(48HFR)
2. Diversity .....(Storyline Changes)
3. NOVELty ....(That's NOT.. in the Book?)

Collide,
so confusion sets in....
Uncertainty, Unsurpisingly, Upsettin'
and Ultimately,

Ungrateful?
for what
we got.

bomby (Only waited 45 years to see this Movie)


(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 14 2013, 9:31pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 15 2013, 4:01pm

Post #45 of 45 (138 views)
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not necessarily on sticking to the book [In reply to] Can't Post

-- We'd have 13 pretty much interchangeable grumpy-garden-gnome Dwarves.

There are plenty of ways to individualize the dwarfs without making them look cartoonish and eccentric. The dwarfs in LOTR all looked different, they could have made them look a bit more unique but could have stayed away from the ridiculous hair styles, and at least gave ALL the dwarfs longer beards since they are called "long beards". I totally don't buy the BS about showing reverence to the singed beards

-- The Dwarves would have been caught one by one by the trolls, because they were stupid enough to walk up one by one to the trolls' fire and stand gawking.

I didn't mind the dwarfs all coming in together but it was the lead up to it that I found awful, Trolls stealing ponies right under their noses, knocking down trees, stomping about carrying a noisy pony under each arm and yet NOBODY noticed, esp since they were supposed to be on watch. THAT was better story telling? I saw nothing wrong with Bilbo being sent to investigate a fire in the distance because the dwarfs were cold, wet, and hungry. Then have the dwarfs come in to investigate. Which would have gave us something like we got but followed the book closer instead of making up some nonsense alternate storyline.

-- We'd have a talking purse.

I agree about the purse, that it wasn't needed, but they could have gave the purses lines to one of the trolls and it would have worked just fine

-- The Elves would be singing "tra la la lally, here down in the valley", etc.

They had already established the elves in LOTR no reason to change them to fit the book. I didn't mind the darker more serious nature of the elves. It would fit with the LOTR trilogy and add some maturity to the Hobbit without changing things too much. But it wouldn't have hurt to show them a bit more happy since they weren't yet leaving middle earth.

-- Amongst their belongings the Dwarves would be lugging with them clarinets, fiddles, flutes, viols, a drum, and a golden harp.

Not necessarily, it is never mentioned again about the instruments, maybe they were left at Baggend. Nothing says they took all their things with them on the journey. I wouldn't have an issue with them playing musical instruments. It would show a playful side to them. I will say I don't think Thorin needed a harp I did like the change with him showing up late and it showed how he was a more serious dwarf when the others knew he arrived since all the fun stopped at that point.

-- Bilbo would frequently be carried by the Dwarves.

Again I don't see a problem with the dwarfs carrying Bilbo once in a while, he should have been smaller than them (instead of him being almost the same size in the film) and might have needed carrying once in a while. I actually seeing them carry Bilbo, plus I would have rather Bilbo left his things at home and was wearing a cloak and hood a bit too big for him.

-- The Eagles would talk.

Don't see an issue with this either, nothing said we had to hear them speak. We could have merely seen Gandalf off a little ways from the group of dwarfs with an eagle slightly bigger than the others, looking as though they are speaking and then have Gandalf explain that the eagles saw the flames and the lord of the eagles recognized him so the rescued them. I like the thought of the eagles seeing the flames as apposed to using the moth. Its almost like Gandalf is hailing a cab using the moth Crazy

-- Goblins would sing things like "But, funny little birds, they had no wings! O what shall we do with the funny little things?"

They didn't need to sing it, but to have a goblin make the comment about the dwarfs being like birds and having no wings would have worked. They merely could have used the lyrics from the song and created some dialogue from them. It would keep with Jackson's previous trilogy by keeping the serious manner but would have included some of the song without actually singing. Makes perfect sense to me. I would have preferred the Goblin's chasing the dwarfs instead of the nonsense we got with the resurrected Azog, and Thorin walking down the flaming tree just to get pimp slapped to the ground.

And that's just a partial list of the things we would have, which, in my mind at least, would move us even farther from the LOTR-world we already knew. You could make an even longer list of the things we wouldn't have, starting with a much more complex and heroic Thorin Oakenshield than we ever see in the book (at least, through Chapter 6).

I hated the whole making Thorin a hero thing. In the book he wasn't at this point in his life. Maybe in the past he was but now he isn't. He just wants to reclaim his gold. Just seemed like they were trying to make him a mini Aragorn which to me was too cliche'. They should have left the timeframe the same instead of shortening it 170 year gap would have been better than the horrible decision to make it only 60. Hardly gives the people of Laketown a chance to forget the dragon. Which would have been an interesting dynamic with many people in Laketown doubting there even really was a dragon.

I think if they had stuck closer to the book we would have gotten a much more entertaining satisfactory story instead of all the made up NON Tolkien story we got. If I wanted to see a story made up by Peter Jackson with bits of Tolkien throughout that's one thing BUT I wanted to see a story by JRR Tolkien given Peter Jackson's treatment instead. There is a big difference. They should have just done the story as close as possible only making changes to it where there was no other option


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