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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Just Think .... no LOTR and a shorte Hobbit, IF ...

Yngwulff
Gondor


May 12 2013, 7:28am

Post #1 of 23 (1090 views)
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Just Think .... no LOTR and a shorte Hobbit, IF ... Can't Post

Smaug had cooked Bilbo in the secret tunnel and destroyed the Ring all of gandalfs troubles would be over!


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


May 12 2013, 7:29am

Post #2 of 23 (600 views)
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smaug's fire could not have destroyed the ring [In reply to] Can't Post

the only fire that could destroy the ring is the fire where it was forged, mount doom.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 12 2013, 8:00am

Post #3 of 23 (617 views)
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not what was said at the Council of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

Mount Doom or Dragon fire, but at the time of LOTR no wyrms left ....


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


May 12 2013, 8:42am

Post #4 of 23 (583 views)
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don't they say at the council that [In reply to] Can't Post

some rings can be destroyed by dragon fire but the one can only be destroyed at mount doom?

"Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Beyond the shadow of the gate it waits for you still: Durins Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durins Folk walk again in Moria.


Azaghl
Lorien


May 12 2013, 9:29am

Post #5 of 23 (541 views)
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One thing we know for sure is.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dragon fire is pretty f...ing hot.. those poor Esgaroth people. Unsure

*Baruk khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!*


DanielLB
Immortal


May 12 2013, 9:45am

Post #6 of 23 (543 views)
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Heat of Smaug's fire [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming Erebor is mainly composed of Volcanic igneous rock, I'm guessing that Smaug's fire is cooler than 1200 degC, since he didn't melt the tunnel the Dwarves were hiding in. Most minerals that comprise igneous rock begin to become molten before temperatures reach ~1200 degC. Quartz becomes molten at ~600 degC, so his breath may be well be in the 600-700 degC region.

Now, 600 degC is relatively hot, it's about 10% of the Sun's heat. Most ovens and microwaves can reach that temperature. Doesn't sound that impressive now. Wink

Gold melts at a around 1000 degC. Smaug's fire is probably just below this limit.


Seaber
Rivendell

May 12 2013, 11:30am

Post #7 of 23 (476 views)
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If it doesn't break the ring [In reply to] Can't Post

It would surely get lost forever in the mountains of gold there.

As good as destoyed Laugh


painjoiker
Grey Havens


May 12 2013, 12:28pm

Post #8 of 23 (466 views)
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Dragonfire could melt all magic rings, [In reply to] Can't Post

except the one... Smile

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 12 2013, 1:36pm

Post #9 of 23 (428 views)
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I don't know about the Council of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

- but in 'The Shadow of the Past', Gandalf tells Frodo that no dragon - not even Ancalagon the Black - was hot enough to melt the One Ring. So into the fires of Mt Doom it had to go.
.


Ffnir
Rohan


May 12 2013, 4:38pm

Post #10 of 23 (416 views)
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Gandalf says that even Ancalagon's fire [In reply to] Can't Post

could not have destroyed the ring. By the way, it have the apparence of gold, but i don't think the laws of physics apply to it as they would to another gold object. It can change of weight and size at will, wich goes against the law of mass conservation.


Esmeralda
Bree


May 12 2013, 5:48pm

Post #11 of 23 (409 views)
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What Gandalf said to Frodo in ch. 2 of Fellowship: [In reply to] Can't Post

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


May 12 2013, 7:28pm

Post #12 of 23 (343 views)
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Elrond did not say dragon's fire [In reply to] Can't Post

he said only in the fires of mount doom can it be unmade.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 12 2013, 7:38pm

Post #13 of 23 (354 views)
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Random point [In reply to] Can't Post

What geological processes could even create a mountain that big all by itself in the middle of flat land??? Plate tectonics all pushing in one direction? Seems impossible.


DanielLB
Immortal


May 12 2013, 7:45pm

Post #14 of 23 (343 views)
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Convergence of two tectonic plates isn't the only mountain building process. [In reply to] Can't Post

See orogeny.

The landscape surrounding the mountain would certainly imply that tectonic convergence and subuction aren't responsible for Erebor.

Both Mt. Kilimanjaro and Mt. Fuji are isolated mountains, formed through volcanic processes. Erebor may well have been volcanic as well - the amount of gems would support this theory.


Kaede
Rivendell


May 12 2013, 9:27pm

Post #15 of 23 (320 views)
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LOL...have you seen this? [In reply to] Can't Post

"How the Hobbit Should Have Ended" has a very similar cut-to-the-chase series ending idea. Worth watching just for the end song. (spoiler: crude goblin king humor, however.) Just google it or YouTube it. Short spoof, well done.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 13 2013, 4:31pm

Post #16 of 23 (222 views)
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Bilbo's adventure was atypical. [In reply to] Can't Post

Given the lack of information regarding those "so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures" we may assume they met grisly ends similar to the one you describe.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 5:50pm

Post #17 of 23 (218 views)
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Surely not that many... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Given the lack of information regarding those "so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures" we may assume they met grisly ends similar to the one you describe.



Gandalf would be turned away at the borders of the Shire if too many Hobbit lads and lasses met with bad ends on his account. Remember that the majority of Hobbit adventures that Bilbo could recall were more of the order of climbing trees and visiting Elves rather than stowing away aboard ships.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 14 2013, 6:20pm

Post #18 of 23 (170 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
See orogeny.

The landscape surrounding the mountain would certainly imply that tectonic convergence and subuction aren't responsible for Erebor.

Both Mt. Kilimanjaro and Mt. Fuji are isolated mountains, formed through volcanic processes. Erebor may well have been volcanic as well - the amount of gems would support this theory.


Volcanoes make only specific types of gems and not the very wide variety Bilbo was talking about. Then there is the gold. Volcanoes usually, as far as I know, do not produce genuine gold. Usually the are black gold like nuggets. Plus the mountain has zero sign of lava runoff around the base AND they dig so deep and don't mention one bit of heat. It is clear to me that Erebor is not a volcano. So in regards to scientific data the only conclusion I can make is that we are just getting observational error and the lonely mountain really does not exist. Wink


DanielLB
Immortal


May 14 2013, 6:32pm

Post #19 of 23 (167 views)
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All good points ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we're both thinking of the movie version of Erebor, I really doubt the film-makers thought whether the mountain was volcanic in origin or not. Wink I haven't a clue what Tolkien's thought on the geology of the mountain were. Perhaps it wasn't natural at all, and it was Aule who put it there.

Didn't Tolkien originally want Erebor part of the Iron Hills?

Isolated mountains tend to be volcanic, and/or formed from a hotspot. I've always liked to think that the Secret Entrance was a laval tube.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on May 14 2013, 6:36pm)


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 16 2013, 8:23am

Post #20 of 23 (156 views)
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Yup! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
- but in 'The Shadow of the Past', Gandalf tells Frodo that no dragon - not even Ancalagon the Black - was hot enough to melt the One Ring. So into the fires of Mt Doom it had to go.
.


I stand corrected and recall that passage now!
Been a while since I read it ...


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 16 2013, 3:46pm

Post #21 of 23 (143 views)
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Now, if Smaug found the Ring? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that it is settled that Smaug could not destroy the One Ring, what if it had fallen into his possession? Would he have felt a need to return it to Sauron? Or, would Smaug have wanted to keep it for himself?

More: Would Smaug have tried to use the Ring? Or, would he have simply kept it for his hoard?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 16 2013, 5:48pm

Post #22 of 23 (141 views)
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Ummm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Now that it is settled that Smaug could not destroy the One Ring, what if it had fallen into his possession? Would he have felt a need to return it to Sauron? Or, would Smaug have wanted to keep it for himself?

More: Would Smaug have tried to use the Ring? Or, would he have simply kept it for his hoard?


Could he even pick up something so small?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 16 2013, 7:23pm

Post #23 of 23 (141 views)
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The Ring could change size... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Could he even pick up something so small?



For the sake of argument, say 'yes'.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

 
 

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