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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
SMAUG THE MAGNIFICENT!
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 4:48pm

Post #26 of 42 (477 views)
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I agree there was green screen on LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

but the sets were actually built or made of Bigatures, which worked for LOTR. They worked fantastically and were believable because they used just enough green screen. Where all the action was shot on a set and the background was green screen. A background is much easier to create then something where objects should feel real. And the only way something is going to feel real is being real. The Hobbit however has overused green screen, by building complete sets out of it. The only thing NOT green screen are the actors and maybe a few intractable props. The miniatures were so finely detailed they would work just fine IMO, I do not think they look dated at all. it just that Jackson would have to pick his camera angels instead of having a virtual world to look at. But in the long run I think it would have made a better product.

How far we have come that real sets aren't needed any more, and sadly it shows.Unsure

Jackson was so immersed in using his new technology, wanting newer cameras, more digital effects, 3D, 48fps unfortunately he left the storytelling behind. I would have rather had 24fps, shot in the traditional method,using Bigatures, miniatures, and known working methods of film making. Then maybe we would have had a story that felt like the middle earth we got with LOTR. The new digital sets don't work for me, You can tell they are fake IMO. Certain characters like Gollum were a once in a lifetime thing, Azog to me doesn't feel real at all. I keep expecting to see him wearing the god of war tattoos at any moment in the film. He just reminds me of some video game character, where as Gollum feels real like a part of the scene. Azog looks merely painted on top of it.

I think the Hobbit would have looked much better if they had stuck with using green screen for backgrounds instead of building whole sets out of it. Pioneering something just to do it is not always a good thing. Peter Jackson was too busy wondering if he could when he should have been wondering if he should. Personally I think he should have left it the way they knew it worked.Unsure


(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 9 2013, 4:51pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 5:13pm

Post #27 of 42 (396 views)
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I do have an issue with [In reply to] Can't Post

the colour grading, i really dont like it. More like Gum and Cherry Land or Telettubies than Middle Earth.

However, the fakeness and CGIness of the sets is obvious in that trailer- dol guldur, rivendell- before colour grading.

No, it is the digital look of the camera, the unforgiving resolution, the prevalence of Cgi palletes and backgrounds and sets rather than locations, that just dont blend well together, thus making the film look like an amateur hour show at times, in my opinion : Rivendell, dol guldur , Azanulbizar, Goblin Town, post Misty Mountains for example...It looks very studio like and digital like. Some like this, i really dont.

No, i cant agree.

Goblin town looks terrible, one of my biggets disappointments. Instead of a filmic, dark, underground, hellish sequence, the whole place looks straight out of a video game, all imbued with a ridiculous blueish and orange teal visual Yuck...It certainly doesnt look like a maze of dark caverns.

Jackson showed no sense of visual imagination and understanding of how powerfull such a scene could be., because light and darkness are two very powerfull visual options in cinema.

And that sharpness just makes the ladders, the skulls, stand out as sets...not to mention..Kili blocking the incoming goblin arrows lol.

I think the miniatures look great today. After re watching lotr i am convinced of that, giving a true sense of presence, of a reality, of history...In comparison, Rivendell looks like a ...CGI pallette added to a rocky set. Suspenseion of disbelief is no more.

And if miniature work prevented jackson form going on steroids and giving us those sweeping crazy woooah camera shots like the GT videogame descent down the tunnel ...good! Wink

I think CGI is better applied when used sparingly, judiciously, only when it is absolutely necessary. Not that people dont appreciate it because it is CGi...you dont hear anyone complain about the usage of CGI in Game of Thrones because it is used only occasionally.

I think Ridley Scott still uses these elaborate sets as well. Different approach really, its just a matter of choice, not a cinematic obligation.

Theres just one shot of rivendell in daylight that is well done and seamless...the last shot when the company is leaving...It is much darker and it is a far away shot so those are probably two reasons why it looks different and better.


Yes i had seen that a while ago...its better than most interviews, but still i wish we had sharper interviews with bolder interviewers.

Cheers.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 5:16pm

Post #28 of 42 (383 views)
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Natural depth and solidity [In reply to] Can't Post

well said, thats right.

My firts reaction to the first shot of rivendell was ...really? Thats rivendell? Its a computer effect, lol!

Oh that image brings back memories..Heart

The rivendell set is such a wonder to behold ...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 5:21pm

Post #29 of 42 (402 views)
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"Azog to me doesn't feel real at all" [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, after Ainour recommended it i recently watched Ridley Scotts Legend! And i find that ...weird, green, swamp evil fairy, far more frightening and scary than Azog, who just makes me wish i could press delete lol.

I actually flinched once, and its a childrens film haha.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Skaan
Lorien


May 9 2013, 6:18pm

Post #30 of 42 (412 views)
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What you just said is a little silly [In reply to] Can't Post

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5150c2f469beddde6f00000f-590/-where-theyll-encounter-the-master-of-laketown-.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/2946269007aa4a60ff33a67d90a3e0c6/tumblr_mk6jnawF1R1qm7vhlo1_500.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/a20447398f89bdf6832f5e7a2866bade/tumblr_mgggzpidA21r8wgr7o1_500.jpg
http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/500da06cda15c_beorn.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/KatiKat/LJDW/Hobbit_BTS_BeornsHouse.jpg
http://www.elvenesse.net/BlogPhotos/ProdVid4Clip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/REKAU.jpg
http://thearmitageeffect.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/hobbitblog400053.jpg
http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/500da4328185d_dale.png
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/18967148697.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/168746987.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/29784987.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/1987987.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/1876168.png/
http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff441/fishlegs6/Hobbit%20Stills/GoblinTown.jpg

These are just a couple of pictures i've found by some random Googling. The way you described the green screen usage in LOTR is exactly what you're seeing in these pictures aswell, all the action on a set, and the background as green screen.

There are loads of other pictures that i'd love to show you, but i couldn't find them. Such as a pic that showed the set they've build for the Thorin vs Azog scene. Or a pic that clearly shows the huge size of the Laketown set they've build. Or pictures that showed some more of the Goblintown set, etc etc...

I don't know where you get the idea from that they're not building sets anymore.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 9 2013, 6:39pm

Post #31 of 42 (362 views)
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Okay letzz Settle this? with an ORC Cage Match! [In reply to] Can't Post

In this Corner!
Sir Pete & Sir Rich...World Champions!

In this Corner!
Challengers? Sir SIN- ister...& Sir LUST-itano!!

(also known as "2 Young TORn... UpStarts..")

Bomby getz to Referee!

Ding..Ding...
All Bets are Now OFF!.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 9 2013, 7:23pm

Post #32 of 42 (369 views)
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I must admit [In reply to] Can't Post

Somehow I'm fairly surprised by Smaug's size-now obviously dragons are huge, but it apparently seems that Smaug is going to bring another definition to the word.

What surprised me more though was the amount of gold in that cavern-how could you have that much gold??? Crazy There's so much compared to the much smaller piled mountain that Tolkien's picture portrayed.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


elaen32
Gondor

May 9 2013, 9:37pm

Post #33 of 42 (344 views)
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In agreement [In reply to] Can't Post

The Bigatures in LOTR were beautiful and really sold it to me. I don't think any of them look dated and yes, I think Rivendell really benefitted from having the outdoor set as well as the CGI matte paintings etc. I was hoping that there would be more miniatures in TH and was really disappointed when I learnt it would all be CGI. A balance of all these elements works best for me. As for Goblin Town, I did not find that more realistic at all. Moria felt much more creepy, dangerous and real. On my 2D (but still HD) TV a lot of the Goblin Town sequence is blurry (not to mention very silly) in the fast moving parts. I much preferred Moria, which, with the exception of the bit where Aragorn and Frodo are on the staircase as it falls towards their companions, I find much more realistic.
Re Azog, he does look painted in, but then I think that's because he was, and in a hurry too. I felt we could really have done without the character, except at Azanulbizar, where he should have died. If they had to have an orc pursuit of the company, then Bolg would have sufficed IMO
Agree with your last paragraph wholeheartedly

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Eleniel
Grey Havens


May 9 2013, 9:44pm

Post #34 of 42 (337 views)
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Yes, the location was magical... [In reply to] Can't Post

There's more pictures here: http://www.fanpop.com/...itle/rivendell-photo

Such a shame it had to be demolished - would have made a fantastic (not to mention, lucrative) wedding venue! Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Skaan
Lorien


May 9 2013, 10:15pm

Post #35 of 42 (373 views)
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Regarding the color grading [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe they're using color grading as a means of storytelling aswell? They've mentioned a couple of times how they want to make the first Hobbit be all lighthearted and fairytale like, but as the story progresses, it would get darker and the tone would start matching LOTR. Maybe this is why AUJ has lots of vibrant colors? Because they want to show Middle-earth is still in it's "beautiful and no-worries" state. And as the movies progress, and more dangers/threats start popping up, the color grading would start matching the style of LOTR?

I'm personally not a fan of the color grading in AUJ aswell, but if this is the reason why they're doing it, i'm ok with itSmile

Not gonna talk about the rest of your comment and the subject of CGI, as i feel it would probably lead to endless back and forth arguments anyway, and we've both made our point already.


Wauntaun
The Shire

May 9 2013, 11:39pm

Post #36 of 42 (341 views)
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That pic of Bilbo scaled down. [In reply to] Can't Post

That picture where Bilbo is scaled down to size with Smaug next to him just got me even more pumped for this movie than I already was. Great job, whoever did this. Also, I like the chameleon idea where his skin changes with his mood. That could be very suspenseful.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 1:05pm

Post #37 of 42 (268 views)
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Never said they weren't building sets [In reply to] Can't Post

but the trend has declined. There have been several scenes seen in the Vlog's where every thing around the actors is green, from tables and other shapes that match the virtual environment that even stuff an actor could touch they can't because its not real. I think had they stuck exclusively to having built sets or using the detailed miniatures with the only green screen being the background it would have looked much better.


Arannir
Valinor


May 10 2013, 1:13pm

Post #38 of 42 (260 views)
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I think.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... your views are not even that far apart in this discussion. You probably would both agree that the technical decisions had a big impact on AUJ.

Thedifference - of course, the crucial one - is whether you liked or disliked that different look.


I recently re-watched LotR on BluRay on a massive TV. And I have to say: it has aged, the look is not as timeless as some claim it to be although it is much more timeless than almost everything else out there. However, because of the level of detail and love, I argue that TH trilogy will be the same, despite the different look.

I also don't see how Dol Guldur, for example, could have looked better with a miniature... quite the opposite, actually. I found the blend from the "overall shot" to Gandalf in the set piece extraordinaryly done.

But there we are back to the level of personal taste, again.

Tomorrow I will finally see the AUJ BluRay on my Laptop... the way I watched LotR most of the time over the last years. So that will be the first time I can really compare the look of the two, since I really cannot tell anymore how LotR actually looked to me in cinema other than I loved it.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Vangalad
Lorien


May 10 2013, 1:42pm

Post #39 of 42 (287 views)
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Hi everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not sure if this has already been posted ,it's just a small bit of info from B.Cumberbatch about Smaug: http://news.mymiddleearth.com/...d&utm_medium=twitter


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


May 10 2013, 9:55pm

Post #40 of 42 (240 views)
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Hi Vangalad! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes that info is old news but ey! good contribution to the post;-)

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Timdalf
Rivendell


May 11 2013, 2:32pm

Post #41 of 42 (215 views)
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Does it come Smaug-sized? [In reply to] Can't Post

In view of Demosthenes' post on the Main TORn page about measuring Smaugy, let me add:

Since I (like all true wizards who deal with naughty lizards) think in terms of English measurements here are the totals in footses and incheses (rounded off a tad): Head: 22 ft; Neck & Body: 62 ft 11 in; Tail: 111ft 5 in; Nose to Tail: 202 ft 8 in; Wing: 75 ft 6 in; Full wing span: 246 ft - 328 ft; Old Trafford football pitch is 115 x 75 yds. or 345 ft x 225 ft -- Signed: Timdalf


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 12 2013, 5:56am

Post #42 of 42 (190 views)
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in another post [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on my estimated size of his nostrils compared to the secret doorway, he could be up to 900 feet long


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!

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