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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Spot the connection?

Grey Havens

Apr 30 2013, 10:49am

Post #1 of 9 (1136 views)
Spot the connection? Can't Post

Okay, here's a challenge for you. Put your thinking caps on and see if you can spot a thematic connection between these three small bits of the movie.

1. The exiled Dwarves of Erebor wander the wilderness, a once might people brought low; Thorin shakes his fist at the mountains and remembers the dragon-fire.

2. Bofur discovers the gold and silver coins on the floor of the troll's cave, remarks that it seems a shame to leave the treasure laying around, and he and Gloin and Ori begin to collect it up for burying.

3. Bilbo defends Thorin's body as first Azog, then one of the mounted minions, approaches.

Why these, you ask? It's the music -- these are the three places in the movie where the, for lack of a better description, "mountain-shaped" theme plays. The common musical theme suggests these three bits have something else in common.

I can come up with some good commonalities between 1 & 3, or 1 & 2, but I can't come up with a common theme for 2 & 3. So -- what connection do *you* think Howard Shore, or PJ, is trying to get at here?


Apr 30 2013, 11:01am

Post #2 of 9 (569 views)
Doesn't Dwalin look rather "annoyed" at the dwarves with the chest? [In reply to] Can't Post

It might be a hint at the sad fate of the dwarves of Erebor, especially Thorin and his kin, as this foreshadows the greed that will lead to the conflict between the Free Peoples, Thorin and Bilbo and eventually his death.

Forum Admin / Moderator

Apr 30 2013, 11:43am

Post #3 of 9 (541 views)
Idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe all will have a follow up in a later movie?

They do return to Erebor and we probably will see dragon-fire.
They do return to the troll hoard and collect that long-term deposit (because Bilbo takes it home).
There probably will be another encounter with Azog, and maybe Bilbo will jump in again.

So maybe, but that is a big maybe, that music will be the main song for DOS or DABA.


Apr 30 2013, 12:13pm

Post #4 of 9 (504 views)
I've been thinking about this also [In reply to] Can't Post

Some on forums devoted to movie music have christened this theme 'Thorin's Pride', but I'm not entirely convinced.

Sadly, we can't yet rule out the possibility that this music has no particular thematic connection and is just placed merely because it sounded good to PJ. I particularly wonder if this is the case with its third usage in the film. Because even with new themes for The Hobbit there is some evidence to suggest that thematic material is re-used or tracked for other scenes where it is technically out of place. For example, the music where Radagast flees Dol Guldur is distinctly Radagastian, and yet it is used again for the scene where Bilbo is running downhill having escaped the mountains. There appears to be something different on the soundtrack.


Apr 30 2013, 3:58pm

Post #5 of 9 (395 views)
I'm sure these are well planned, good point // [In reply to] Can't Post



May 1 2013, 6:31am

Post #6 of 9 (275 views)
I can't find explicit connection [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there is a relation between the three sequence you mention. I don't see it as a specific
thematic relation. I see it more in the music itself and how this particular toon conveys a sense of uncertainty
and buildup. It is a bit of an ambiguous leadup toward a musical sequence that could go either way in the larger
message it conveys. In other words, different punctuation is applied to this theme in each of the three scenes you mentioned.
For instance, the misty moutain theme caps this musical sequence as the dwarves charge into the fight; yet there is uncertainty
as to what will happen before the punctuation is added.
At least, this is one way of seeing it.

Grey Havens

May 1 2013, 8:00am

Post #7 of 9 (267 views)
Yup. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think maybe you're onto something. Perhaps it's a sort of "sad fate originating from dragon-sickness" theme. When the homeless Dwarves wander the wilderness and young Thorin shakes his fist at the mountain, and when Thorin lies unconscious with Bilbo defending him, we're seeing explicitly the sad result of a chain of events that started with dragon-sickness. When Bofur, Gloin, and Nori are scooping up the troll-treasure, the theme is muted, quieter, and we only hear its first part IIRC: they're at risk of this sad fate stemming from a love of gold, but it hasn't fully taken hold yet.


May 1 2013, 10:01pm

Post #8 of 9 (198 views)
Dragon sickness [In reply to] Can't Post

In the appendices it speaks of Thror possessing a ring of power, and how these rings given to the dwarfs tended to make one gold hungry and greedy. This was built into the dwarf rings to make it easier for the Sauron to repossess them and possess the owners. Well, the dwarfs were tougher than Sauron ever expected and it was difficult for Sauron to break them, as opposed to men, that was easy. This made Sauron very angry. The ring then went to Thrain, where it was taken from him by the Necromancer and then Thrain was totally broken and no one really knows what happened to him, but it probably was not good.

In Thorin's case, I think this was a temporary mental illness and he could just not work through his need to possess the Arkenstone. After the BOT5A though, he was completely sorry for his selfish acts and made a point to apologize to Bilbo, and probably others as well. Maybe being so close to your death really does make you realize what is important. I think he would have made a good king though and would have been generous and magnanimous.

PJ has included info from the Appendices so far, it will be interesting to see if any of this is included, maybe in the EE editions?

(This post was edited by Dis15 on May 1 2013, 10:10pm)


May 2 2013, 11:03pm

Post #9 of 9 (171 views)
Dragon Sickness or Ring Sickness? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a footnote to the above, I believe it is possible that the 7 rings of the Dwarfs may be the main reason why the Dwarfs developed such a bad reputation for being greedy and having dragon sickness. If they were not in possession of the rings, they probably would have developed differently.

And .... since Sauron became so angry at them because he could not break them, this may explain why the Orcs took over their sacred places, not just killed every dwarf they could, but would cut them up into the pieces and feed them to carrion-type birds,


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