Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
creative types and how they use their gifts
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2013, 9:49pm

Post #26 of 37 (170 views)
Shortcut
Nice point about 'displaying!' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

i'm in general agreement, brethil... though i do muse (hey! a pun!) on this wrinkle: an "externalizer" might be more prone to share or display her creations (regardless of the motivation), because without sharing, she cannot receive the accolades. whereas perhaps we might not see as much of the work of the "internalizer," because the internalizer is satisfied just to set up shop and create. no one needs to see it.

we are oversimplifying, of course. if types exist, there are more than two.




Oh good point Mac!!!! Yes (it's simplified) but in those terms certainly the externalizing person would REALLY be more prone, almost compelled, to display, because therin lies the reward - the approval and accolades of the audience.

I am sure many people are a bit of a mix in reality, with fewer people (bell-curve style) being in the extremes.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 9:57pm

Post #27 of 37 (179 views)
Shortcut
great, insightful post, curiousg [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
so, considering all the ways that beings are creative, why isn't enough for some creative types to just create? why does it cause pain to them to hear other's praised for their work?

My guess is that some artists worry that their work isn't good enough, or is only average, or its flaws reflect their personal flaws more than its majesty reflects their majesty. And as human beings go, everyone's insecure about something, so I wouldn't say they're unreasonable in their worries. If you worry that your work is just average or even bad, and it was an intimate expression of your inner self, then you conclude that your inner self is defective. That's on an individual level.

It makes you feel worse if you see someone else's work praised, because they've proven, in a sense, that great beauty can be created, only it didn't/couldn't come from you, which leaves you feeling defeated in a comparative sense, not just an individual sense. Hence artists can wind up criticizing each other out of spite and jealousy instead of supporting each other .

Revealing your inner sense is always risky and often backfires, which is why no one does it very often, even in normal conversation, not just art. To channel your sense of inner beauty into a work of beauty to share with the world that is then dismissed leaves the channel wide open for the outer anguish to flow back inside of you. Ouch! I'm not going to have sympathy for Melkor, since he had other issues, but I think this "wounded artist" could partly be at play in him.

That's for some creative types. There are plenty who do create just because it pleases them to do so. They have happened upon some secrets to a happy way of life that elude the others. It seems admirable that the Inklings were a supportive group and didn't appear jealous of each other.


i love your thoughts, and i love the way you expressed them.

nothing one does creatively can be separated from the self. none of it. therefore, the creator is in every creation, whether the creator feels she eloquently expressed herself or not.

for an "internalizer," perhaps, things stop there. but for most/many creatives, a "perceiver/judger" comes into the picture. someone reads the poem, someone views the sketch, someone listens to the music.

and everyone usually has an opinion.

there are many facets to this. the judgers are perfectly within their rights to say whether they like something or not, or why they think it does or doesn't have merit.

but creators, in turn, can judge the judgers' judgments. is the judger knowledgeable? does that judger seem to have sensibility in sync enough with the creation to assess it?

there's a lot of back and forth going on between creators and audiences. judgers are judged in turn.

yes, revealing oneself through art can be risky. and then to have judgers feel free to make judgy with it. it most certainly can feel like a personal rejection, and it doesn't feel like the judger has put anything comprable at risk.

'It makes you feel worse if you see someone else's work praised, because they've proven, in a sense, that great beauty can be created, only it didn't/couldn't come from you, which leaves you feeling defeated in a comparative sense, not just an individual sense. Hence artists can wind up criticizing each other out of spite and jealousy instead of supporting each other .'

.... i think we can call that "salieri syndrome."

back to melkor... if he was a wounded artist... what were his wounds? he was beloved by eru from the first, given the most gifts. yes, his initial themes were countermanded by eru (with mild amusement at first, then with increasing severity)... so what was within him that made this correction turn sour within him? aule was similarly corrected, but moved on.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 27 2013, 9:59pm)


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 27 2013, 10:39pm

Post #28 of 37 (163 views)
Shortcut
Recognising and accepting the limitations of one's creativity [In reply to] Can't Post

I could always sympathise a bit with Salieri in that film- although we know that the RL character and his relationship with Mozart was different. As a child, I wanted a career in music and was encouraged by teachers, parents etc that this might be feasible- but at that time most people I knew, including these, knew little about the musical world. When I was aged about 13, 14, I realised that I had nowhere near enough talent to pursue this and turned my career aims elsewhere. Initially, I was sad about this, but kept going with the music at my own level, not trying to compete with those who were better than me. Now, I still enjoy music, both listening and performing at amateur level whilst recognising I have my own talents elsewhere. I recognise what other posters have said about internalising and externalising- I am definitely an internaliser overall. I also write a bit, especially poetry, but much of this is so personal, that I feel I don't always want to share it. But it keeps me happy! But I am equally happy, musicwise, performing- as long as I don't have to do a solo or anything embarrassing like that (not much chance of being asked to do that thankfully!).

In the Silmarillion context, there are a large number of externalisers. Melkor wants his creations to be "different" and seems to feel that they are less "his" otherwise. His jealousy leads him to what he thinks is creative originality, but is actually just subverted plagiarism of a kind. In struggling to kick against the majority, he just creates mirror images in negative, rather than anything new.
A thought- does Aule have internaliser tendencies? I'm thinking of the way in which he creates the dwarves, for the pure love of creating them, and them tries to hide them.

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2013, 10:50pm

Post #29 of 37 (162 views)
Shortcut
I agree completely, I see more internalizing with Aule [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In the Silmarillion context, there are a large number of externalisers. Melkor wants his creations to be "different" and seems to feel that they are less "his" otherwise. His jealousy leads him to what he thinks is creative originality, but is actually just subverted plagiarism of a kind. In struggling to kick against the majority, he just creates mirror images in negative, rather than anything new.
A thought- does Aule have internaliser tendencies? I'm thinking of the way in which he creates the dwarves, for the pure love of creating them, and them tries to hide them.




Glad you still enjoy music! Angelic
I agree completely with what you ask about above (quoting myself from upthread - jeez talk about externalizing....Crazy)

Aule seems to be more internalizing, creating from sheer love of the materials and the work, and moving on to the next task without necessarily taking any else's opinion (the matter of the Dwarves a bit of a different level of drama; but I fully believe if Eru had allowed Aule to smash the Dwarves he would have dried his tears and gone back to work) or if given allowing that opinion to change his assessment of his work or himself.

I really think that rejection and rebuke perverted Melkor, because of what he seeks. Whereas Aule, as you say, creates for a different reason and I truly believe would simply have gone on with his life - maybe sad but not twisted about it - had the Dwarves been destroyed.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 9:37am

Post #30 of 37 (155 views)
Shortcut
If the Music of the Ainur were a performance by a garage band... [In reply to] Can't Post

If the Music of the Ainur were a performance by a garage band, then Melkor is the showboating lead guitarist who insists on playing loud, distorted mixolydian scales for the entire duration of the piece, whatever it is that the rest of the band is trying to do.

It's not because that sounds good and is in keeping with the needs of the song and the other performers. It's because he plays mixolidian scales real well and real fast. With lots of distortion so that it sounds OK despite any poor playing. Everyone else will play things that sound good with loud, distorted mixolydians, right?.

I'm pretty sure he also has nice hair an has the guitar on a long strap so that it hangs about groin level. And that old full-length mirror that your dad kept in the garage in case it's useful one day? Yep, he's always facing that while playing.

Perhaps for him its not so much about the music, as about the music being a chance to say "Look At Meeeeee!!!!!!!" to the largest available audience.

Melkor's behaviour would, as you say, be consistent with needing pathological amounts of externaliser-type positive feedback. No harm in wanting feedback, but you're vulnerable and a bit ridiculous if you have no other sense of your progress. Or is Melkor's behaviour because of his need to dominate others? He certainly has or develops plenty of that, again to a damaging extent. Or are those sides of the same coin?

PS - "The Music of the Ainur" does sound worryingly like a name for a bad prog rock band. But if I recall, Melkor split pretty soon, to go form Morgoth and the Balrogs (a goth band, one presumes...)Evil

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 28 2013, 2:18pm

Post #31 of 37 (151 views)
Shortcut
I agree NoWiz! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If the Music of the Ainur were a performance by a garage band, then Melkor is the showboating lead guitarist who insists on playing loud, distorted mixolydian scales for the entire duration of the piece, whatever it is that the rest of the band is trying to do.

It's not because that sounds good and is in keeping with the needs of the song and the other performers. It's because he plays mixolidian scales real well and real fast. With lots of distortion so that it sounds OK despite any poor playing. Everyone else will play things that sound good with loud, distorted mixolydians, right?.

I'm pretty sure he also has nice hair an has the guitar on a long strap so that it hangs about groin level. And that old full-length mirror that your dad kept in the garage in case it's useful one day? Yep, he's always facing that while playing.

Perhaps for him its not so much about the music, as about the music being a chance to say "Look At Meeeeee!!!!!!!" to the largest available audience.

Melkor's behaviour would, as you say, be consistent with needing pathological amounts of externaliser-type positive feedback. No harm in wanting feedback, but you're vulnerable and a bit ridiculous if you have no other sense of your progress. Or is Melkor's behaviour because of his need to dominate others? He certainly has or develops plenty of that, again to a damaging extent. Or are those sides of the same coin?

PS - "The Music of the Ainur" does sound worryingly like a name for a bad prog rock band. But if I recall, Melkor split pretty soon, to go form Morgoth and the Balrogs (a goth band, one presumes...)Evil




I think the 'dominate' would refer to all levels, from perhaps the more innocent need for them to all 'look at him' so he dominates in thought, to the later progression of physical and fear-based control. So yeah, I would say same coin...like Harvey Dent;s coin, Melkor makes his own luck!

Like your whole rock-start analogy here.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 28 2013, 10:00pm

Post #32 of 37 (130 views)
Shortcut
Of Goth Bands and Garages [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like your distinction (19 posts ago--I hate showing up late to a movie), Brethil, between creationist types, and enjoy noWiz's garage band analogy, which is all too accurate for Morgoth's character. But now I'm trying to figure out what came first in Morgoth's case. Was it pride, ego, wounded creativity, or something else? Because whatever is at the center of his Fall will have the rest of his corrupted behavior cascading away from that core reason. Or: is there a single core reason, or multiple reasons working together at the same level of hierarchy?

It's become a chicken & the egg question for me. If selfishness was the core reason, that he wanted to be at the center of the universe, that could explain his hatred for creations by others since he should be the only creator. But if he primarily wanted to create things, and felt stymied by Eru and insufficiently appreciated & rewarded as an externalizer, then that could explain the growth of his malice. If he was just a petty bully, he enjoyed being mean to other people as an end goal, so trashing and mocking their creations, waging war for mischief, and killing, maiming, and pillaging weren't the effects of wounded creativity, or a frustrated egocentric, but the behavior of someone born with a seed of malice that grows up faster and stronger than they do, consuming them.

Or is he just bitter because his Yoko Ono broke up his garage band? And who wouldn't be?


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 28 2013, 10:12pm

Post #33 of 37 (126 views)
Shortcut
Well Yoko has that effect on people... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I would agree! Crazy

And nice to see you here CG! Tongue

I really wonder with Melkor if it wasn''t because of his large allotment of gifts that perhaps opened the door to his downfall - (I am at work, bookless - aiigh!) but the early description of the Valar talks about Melkor being given such power of intellect and vision that he became impatient with waiting for Eru to just make these Children and stuff already...we read about him searching the Void for some stray Flame Eternal to just jump in and start making things himself. And I think that is why, when reprimanded and rejected, he felt 'snubbed' and injured out of proportion to the events - being strong, passionately full of potential and maybe more than a bit bored, he probably saw leaping ahead or creating in advance of Eru was within his scope and frustrated that others didn't see it. Plus he is the closest 'brother' to Aule as well .... sibling-style rivalry maybe, in 'brothers' of different temperaments?

As far as the externalizing - I can see that as a result of rivalry, having to show Eru what he could do, proving himself...and with no early satisfaction, it rankled, and the psychic hairball got bigger and bigger.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 28 2013, 10:42pm

Post #34 of 37 (134 views)
Shortcut
Impatience and superstars [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
being strong, passionately full of potential and maybe more than a bit bored, he probably saw leaping ahead or creating in advance of Eru was within his scope and frustrated that others didn't see it.


Great summary of his traits. Melkor was the greatest of the Valar, and Feanor the greatest of Elves and Men, both having "a large allotment of gifts", as you say, and their impatience with authority and the limitations of others seems their Achilles' heal. They're the genius type who suffers no fools, and everyone else is a fool to them.

Aule is set up as #2 to Melkor as a smith and #3 in Valar rank (nearly tying with Ulmo for #2). He seems happy that way too. It's as if having the most creative gifts sets you up for a hubristic calamity, and fewer makes you happy.

How do you suppose Tolkien saw himself in this area? He was a genius in creating his legendarium, and who else had single-handedly created such a vast and complex one before him? Yet his behavior was of the more modest Aule variety. I guess my point is, fan worship aside, I see Tolkien's creative powers as being of the Melkor/Feanor exceptional category, yet he writes about those characters as if they are alien to him. He feels sorry for Feanor and rues his fall, but still calls him evil (via Mandos, in one of his few non-cryptic moments). I'm glad he doesn't behave as they do, but wonder who he modeled them after.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 12:24am

Post #35 of 37 (121 views)
Shortcut
Wow CG - GREAT idea to discuss! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

How do you suppose Tolkien saw himself in this area? He was a genius in creating his legendarium, and who else had single-handedly created such a vast and complex one before him? Yet his behavior was of the more modest Aule variety. I guess my point is, fan worship aside, I see Tolkien's creative powers as being of the Melkor/Feanor exceptional category, yet he writes about those characters as if they are alien to him. He feels sorry for Feanor and rues his fall, but still calls him evil (via Mandos, in one of his few non-cryptic moments). I'm glad he doesn't behave as they do, but wonder who he modeled them after.




Ooooh - amazingly interesting question here CG!!!! But after reading Letters, I tend to think of him - despite his brilliance - as a bit more towards the Aule side, in a way. I like this quote in Letter #328: "Of course the L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth now and must go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child." And at one point he talks about writing it all "to please myself." In Letter #340 he discusses being surprised that a in visit to the publishing company they were overwhelmingly busy with his works. I can't find which Letter but there is also one where his handwriting has been criticized; but he is happy that bad writing notwithstanding the miracle is that anyone at all takes pleasure in what he writes.

It's not a simple question by any means - I think you could get a lively thread out of this idea CG - but there is a vein of self-effacement and modesty in JRRT's writings that I find endearing; very different than attitudes I have read from other authors whose bios I have read, or comments they have made. As for the role modeling - working in a Uni environment, I wonder if he saw some of these creative, competitive traits there.

I would love to peruse it further - just got in from work, have a few minutes to shower then off to bed to go back at 6am for more...so maybe we can keep this idea going. It's a winner. Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 4 2013, 8:05am

Post #36 of 37 (111 views)
Shortcut
A new thread, touching on Tolkiens attitude to fanfic might be of interest [In reply to] Can't Post

Start here: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=601254#601254

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Beren0nehanded
Bree


May 24 2013, 12:08pm

Post #37 of 37 (92 views)
Shortcut
Your discussion from the beginning . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

makes me think of this following quote from C.S. Lewis on creativity and how it changed my view on creativity . . .

"Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it."

-C.S. Lewis

Don't be hasty.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.