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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
what if film1 had ended at barrels out of bond?

LordElrond
Rivendell


Apr 23 2013, 11:11pm

Post #1 of 24 (1245 views)
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what if film1 had ended at barrels out of bond? Can't Post

If there had only been two films like originally planned then what would we not have seen that we actualy did get to see in film1 as it currently is? Would the azog plot have been left out? From the vlogs though it's obvious that there was always going to be a warg chase through the fields so there must've been an orc hunt going on even if azog wasn't behind it all. The warg chase and the Frodo scenes were always going to be a part of film1 and they both take up a fair amount of time so it's hard to imagine how they could've stretched it right up to the barrel escape.

I saw Richard Armitage say in an interview that Thorin finding respect for Bilbo was going to happen at a different time if there had only been two films so would that mean there wouldn't have been any hug etc on the carrock? Did they film that scene differently after deciding to do a trilogy instead? I wonder how different the whole fryingpan/carrock sequence would have been if it wasn't the climax.


(This post was edited by LordElrond on Apr 23 2013, 11:14pm)


DjU
Lorien

Apr 23 2013, 11:51pm

Post #2 of 24 (656 views)
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My take [In reply to] Can't Post

If the the films had stayed at two films and stayed at Barrels Out of Bonds the AUJ that we saw would have been cut to ribbons to fit. The scenes that even the detractors of the films think were great like Bag End would have been decimated. I reckon some of the cuts would have made the current missing Bilbo and Dwarf scenes at Rivendell look minor.

AUJ was more less 2hrs 39/40mins from the moment the titles Open to the moment the Credits start rolling.

Of that barely over 5 mins is 'new' footage filmed after the 3 film split. Much more is obviously altered or replacement footage (i.e digital replaced Azog, enhanced Frying Pan fight, re-filmed Carrock) but its not really much.

So to be safe and conservative thats 2hrs 30mins of Original footage. That is 2hrs 30mins which is missing approx 25 mins thats going in the Extended version. That is 2hrs 30mins that is missing a likely fair 5-10mins chunk of High Fells/Thrain material that has been bumped to DoS. Barrels out of Bonds is likely to appear in DoS pas the 1hr mark 95% of the footage which is likely intended for Film 1.

A reasonably tight cut of the original version of AUJ would have been likely way past the 4 hour mark, trimming that down to a sub 3 hour movie would have been fun!

Yes some of the trims could come jettisoning from the additions like Azog, Radagast and Necromancer storylines, but that would hardly make a dent.


In answer to some of your question;

Yes the Carrock scenes were re filmed after the trilogy announcement, but much of the Azog scenes were filmed pre trilogy despite what some people still seem to think, yes much was digital altered or slightly expanded but most existed before the split, If I was a betting man I reckon the only rock solid 'new' Azog scene was the Weathertop scene as that appears to merely be a scene to explain why Yazneg (The Previous Azog design) wasn't around anymore in the altered show down outside the Misty Mountains.


(This post was edited by DjU on Apr 23 2013, 11:55pm)


LordElrond
Rivendell


Apr 24 2013, 1:07am

Post #3 of 24 (573 views)
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do you think azog was originally going to die at the battle of moria? [In reply to] Can't Post

And yazneg would've been a made up orc villian seeking revenge for his old master? I'm so curious to know how it was going to be, I hope PJ explains alot in the extended version.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2013, 7:22am

Post #4 of 24 (468 views)
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what if film one had ended... [In reply to] Can't Post

with the eagle misjudging when to drop bilbo ontop of the other eagle and beorn catches him at the end of his fall?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 24 2013, 8:40am

Post #5 of 24 (463 views)
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I don't think Azog would've been in the two films at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Azog in AUJ replaced Yazneg at Azanulbizar.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2013, 8:52am

Post #6 of 24 (459 views)
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Our rear ends would have been sound asleep [In reply to] Can't Post

after sitting still for 4 1/2 hours! I really don't think PJ could have trimmed it down to under three hours. Too much would have been lost. I'm so glad we've got two more movies to look forward to, and that he's getting to tell the story in the way he thinks is best.


andwise
Rivendell


Apr 24 2013, 11:26am

Post #7 of 24 (401 views)
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in my opinion... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we can count ourselves lucky that it was decided to be made into a trilogy! You're totally right,the bagend sequence would have lost all magic and wonder if it had been cut down to accommodate extra story to make it to the barrels.and what else would have been lost?? Thank the gods its 3 movies.more time in middle earth is NEVER a bad thing!Wink

Arrow....black arrow,I have saved you to the last.you have never failed me and always I have recovered you.I had you from my father and he from old.if ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain,go now and speed well


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Apr 24 2013, 11:54am

Post #8 of 24 (390 views)
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I believe Azog would've appeared in the two film series... [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that Conan Stevens was first cast as Azog, and later John Rawls was cast in the same role, back when TH was a duology. It appears that the design for Yazneg was originally intended for Azog, but that it was ditched for some reason (probably, it didn't look threatening enough).

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


imin
Valinor


Apr 24 2013, 12:30pm

Post #9 of 24 (419 views)
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I think we would have ended up with 2 great films [In reply to] Can't Post

What we have so far is 1 ok film.

Still can't turn back time and so just got to look forward to the next two and hope they will be better films.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2013, 12:48pm

Post #10 of 24 (383 views)
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Yes, Yazneg's look was originally Azog's in the Azanulbizar flashback... [In reply to] Can't Post

...which, according to Ken Stott, was only a short vignette flashback planned for the Prologue when it was only 2 movies. Because we know that the original ending simply featured Fimbul and other warg riders, I'm pretty certain that Yazneg-Azog also died in the Moria flashback - by all accounts Azog was inserted back in after the 3 film decision, to give AUJ a major villain. Thus the extended version of Azanulbizar at the camp fire, plus the Weathertop scene where Yazneg is killed off and the warg/bunny sled chase are all extras.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Apr 24 2013, 1:12pm

Post #11 of 24 (377 views)
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But if Azog only was to appear in a short flashback... [In reply to] Can't Post

... then why did PJ make a pretty big deal about the casting of Conan Stevens (announcing it on Facebook and posing with him on a picture)? I mean, why bother if the guy is supposed to be in the movies only for about a minute or so?

Also, Yazneg-Azog is featured in the Pine Tree/Warg Attack Lego set, riding a white warg which points to the fact that Azog (in the Yazneg design) was intended as the leader of the Orcs back when only two films were planned.



Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2013, 1:32pm

Post #12 of 24 (366 views)
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Although Conan was announced as Azog... [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't mind betting that was actually the Bolg character he is now. Who knows, maybe they did consider an undead Azog, working for Sauron in DG?

The Lego set does confuse the issue, is the Yazneg figure on the white warg actually labelled as Azog on the packaging? My comment regarding the original ending of "Frying pan" is based on the Movie Storybook which simply refers to the leader of the warg riders, with a photo of Fimbul, and no explicit mention of Azog.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt

(This post was edited by Eleniel on Apr 24 2013, 1:33pm)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2013, 6:14pm

Post #13 of 24 (312 views)
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Yes, I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know some are saying that the films would have been cut to shreds, but the fact is that the pacing of AUJ is slow compared to the LotR films. The original theatrical cuts of those movies moved along at breakneck pace, and I think the original version of AUJ would likely have been like this as well. Yes, things would have been cut - but imo, they should have been. Things like the Dwarves and Gandalf betting on Bilbo, followed by the whole handkerchief bit, while fantastic for fans, would have been relegated to the Extended Cut by the PJ of ten years ago.

Also, there are just so many things set up in the beginning of the film that were obviously meant to pay off in this film. We get introduced to Thranduil in the prologue and to the Spiders of Mirkwood during the first Radagast scene. But now, the payoff for those introductions won't even happen until this coming December.

The #1 rule of film editing is that you have to be willing to kill your babies (scenes and moments that you love). PJ knew that during the time of The Lord of the Rings films. Hell, he cut out the closure of Saruman's character for the good of RotK's structure and pace. He and his editors were ruthless back then. That's the way the game is played.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 24 2013, 6:24pm)


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 24 2013, 6:34pm

Post #14 of 24 (283 views)
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I do agree ... [In reply to] Can't Post

On the pacing thing. But I found the opening 1 hour (including the handkerchief thing) perfect.
Though I admit the betting was just for humour but the handkerchief bit was essential for Bilbo's characterization. It shows his way of thinking of what an adventure means. And I liked almost all of the parts which were meant to be funny.

The major pace-breaker for me was Rivendell. I think the dinner scene (though I loved the "I don't eat green-food" bits) was of not much significance except establishing a base for Bilbo naming his sword in DOS. That bit I guess could have been squeezed in somewhere else.

But what I hate most is Azog (in a way similar to Thorin Wink). He "defiles" the film, imo. A problem which would never have happened if this were just two movies.

In short, I think the film could have been 15-20 minutes shorter, and that would have been ideal for me.

As a sidenote, I don't think it's fair to judge LOTR-pacing with the TH-pacing judging by the size of the original sources. Of course, a two-part movie would have been better paced but I really dislike comparing one series with another.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2013, 6:43pm

Post #15 of 24 (280 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

It is probably wrong to compare the two, but still the pacing could have been faster and the film leaner (thus allowing the narrative to extend further, as it should have been).

I agree completely about Azog. About 90% of the problems I have with the film are Azog related. #1 starting with: Where the hell has this enraged killer orc bent on revenge against Thorin been for the past 100 years? Crazy

...oh, wait, now I remember. He was DEAD. Until PJ decided that he wasn't. Frown

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 24 2013, 6:45pm)


DjU
Lorien

Apr 24 2013, 7:04pm

Post #16 of 24 (270 views)
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Warg chase was location work [In reply to] Can't Post

The Warg and Bunnies chase is NOT extra, the bulk of that (bar bad Radagast green screen) was shot on location in late 2011. Its then very sure this was always intended to happen.

The extended version of Azanulbizar at the camp fire, yes that may have been the new home for extended version but they said they kept going back to the 'Battle of Moria' throughout production therefore there is no conclusive evidence this was solely due to the film split. The main Azog alterations to AZR seem to be the mo-cap replacement, the scene may have already been moved to this place already.

Some form of camp scene or overnight scene existed before the split as the shots Gandalf smoking and Bilbo walking out on the the cliff out of the cave are both present in the Trailer from December 2011. When Azanulbizar got moved here, yes, we don't know.

The scene of Yazneg looking over the camp is likely to be new.

Whilst we don't have any concreate visual proof that 'Yazneg/Old Azog' was digitally replaced at the Pine Tree/Warg Attack like we have for Azanulbizar the Lego set does seem to hint towards it. The big Azog showdown was beefed up for the split but 'Yazneg' may have been present before.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2013, 8:10pm

Post #17 of 24 (249 views)
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yes, I realized that about the warg chase after I posted... [In reply to] Can't Post

There was always something/someone chasing the Company into Rivendell. I guess because it's just one of the scenes that didn't work so well, and hardly anyone likes it would be easier to explain it away as a late addition!

So if there was always a unit of Warg riders on their heels in the 2 film HOBBIT, are we assuming then that the Orcs were being directed by Conan Stevens' Bolg character from Dol Guldur?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Apr 24 2013, 8:30pm

Post #18 of 24 (246 views)
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Hmmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I can't read the text - it's too small. But I assume this figure at least was supposed to be Azog in his orginal(?) design. Maybe they changed the name on the packaging to Yazneg in the last minute. But since PJ used the Yazneg-Azog design for Azanulbizar at first and he rides the white warg in the Lego set, I believe it's pretty safe to assume that Azog was intended as the main villain for pre-trilogy AUJ.

This Azog/Yazneg/Bolg issue is really confusing... hope PJ & Co shed some light on this soon.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


sycorax82
Rohan

Apr 24 2013, 9:59pm

Post #19 of 24 (246 views)
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Any location work is from the original 2 movie treatment [In reply to] Can't Post

Hence, the Company were always going to be chased by orcs, just not orcs under the command of Azog.

It's is likely we would have seen Azog (old design) killed at Azanulbizar. When Balin is recounting those events, we would later see Bolg plotting revenge, him being the one sending the orcs to chase down Thorin. The ending of that campfire scene, where Bilbo asks what came of the Pale Orc, and that significant look between Balin and Gandalf, was likely added post-3 film decision.

I'd say Bolg was always going to be the main orc villain, but there was no way they could have worked in a showdown between him and Thorin at the end of AUJ as it, presumably, would clash with later scenes.

Personally I believe they're lying when they say Azog will have a larger role across both DoS and TABA, and that we will see him despatched fairly early in DoS!! By Beorn, probably. This paves the way for the picking up of the Bolg plot.


BalrogTrainer
Rivendell

Apr 25 2013, 12:02am

Post #20 of 24 (208 views)
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I personally... [In reply to] Can't Post

... have no problem with more leisurely-paced films/TV shows (hell, AUJ is NOTHING compared to the films of Antonioni Tongue) -- even if it IS an adventure (see the first 3 seasons of Lost). I will say, though, that the parts I though felt drawn out on my first viewing of AUJ in theaters did NOT feel that way to me on my second and third viewings via On-Demand. I'm not sure how many times you've seen it, but getting over that 'hump' of the first viewing can sometimes help.

I also feel we should reserve full judgment of the Azog arc until we genuinely know for sure where PJ and his co-writers are going with it... which may not be until the trilogy is finished. Unimpressed


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Apr 25 2013, 1:38am

Post #21 of 24 (221 views)
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EE special feature [In reply to] Can't Post

Explaining the Orc Tribes should be a feature on the extended edition. Wink

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 25 2013, 7:56pm

Post #22 of 24 (143 views)
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I just checked on the official The Hobbit Lego site... [In reply to] Can't Post

and the figure is definitely named as Yazneg: http://thehobbit.lego.com/en-gb/products/79002

Quote

Attack of the Wargs
79002

Having escaped the Goblins of The Misty
Mountains
, The Company of Dwarves
come face to face with another
terrible threat! Catapult the Dwarves into the leafy branches of the tall tree
where they’ll be safe as Yazneg™ and 2 Hunter Orcs arrive
on Wargs and attack! When the Orcs try to burn the tree down, use
the tree’s magic flame shooter function to fight back.
Includes 5
minifigures: Thorin Oakenshield™, Bifur the Dwarf,
Yazneg
and 2 Hunter Orcs, all with assorted weapons.




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Apr 26 2013, 7:56am

Post #23 of 24 (97 views)
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I still believe that figure was meant to be Azog, though... [In reply to] Can't Post

We already know that the Yazneg design was used for Azog during Azanulbizar at some point, and Lego-Yazneg also rides the same white warg as Manu Bennet's Azog. My take on Lego-Yazneg is this: all the figures for the Lego sets had already been made when PJ changed his mind about John Rawl's Azog and decided to go with Manu Bennet instead. Lego could not pull back and replace the figure for the Warg Chase set, but they could change the figure's name on the packaging. Hence, we ended up with old Azog, as played by John Rawls, in this set, even though they changed his name to Yazneg in the last minute.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 26 2013, 9:27am

Post #24 of 24 (107 views)
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Well, naturally the set could have been repackaged hurriedly,,. [In reply to] Can't Post

or it could be that the character was always Yazneg, then when they decided they needed a more major villain they renamed him Azog, but when the character wasn't working visually, they introduced Bennett's Azog...

It can be just a coincidence that the movie storybook doesn't mention Azog at all in the description of the warg attack either.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Apr 26 2013, 9:28am)

 
 

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