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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Issues about the White Council
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 25 2013, 9:58pm

Post #76 of 81 (87 views)
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Interesting, for I often hear the opposite from those not familliar with the lore. [In reply to] Can't Post

They seem often to take the impression that she is indeed a superior to whom he is answerable.

It isn't ambiguous here. Aside from his return and being "Sent Back," there is really nothing to indicate what he is at all. Even Pippin's wondering over the subject is absent from the films. And that is why portraying him as defferent is a bigger problem. If it was told or hinted more strongly at that he was Divine in nature, then his interactions could be more ambigous. Absent that, however, defference can easily denote lower status, especially to a being as powerful and mysterious in her own right as Galadriel, for those who do not know better. What do they know of Ainur and the Angelic Powers of Arda? For all they can tell, The Wizards could have just as easily emmissaries of The High Elves rather than of the Lords of The Angelic Host.

In Reply To
... and I have yet to find one who ever thought about Galadriel being potentially higher than Gandalf.

What they do seem to like is that his status as an "Angel" is left ambigious... I like it too, actually. It was one of the greates Tolkien moments for me in my reading history when I read through one of the Tolkien encyclopedias for the first time and found that out :)

But yea - I guess we have made our points on how we see and feel about the Galadriel/Gandalf relationship many times and won't persuade each other ;) Interesting discussions though, anyways.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 25 2013, 10:09pm

Post #77 of 81 (87 views)
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They couldn't resist the lure of the SUPER drama of discovery. It would have been SOO much more plausible if they had stuck to the Appendices [In reply to] Can't Post

in FACT. That they know Sauron is present, but most of the Council, following Saruman's lead, believe him too weak to pose a credible threat, as yet, and that they can watch and wait. That he is fairly impotent beyond his borders, and if doing his best to avoid their gaze and wrath, hopefully indefinitely, whilst Gandalf is certain that Sauron is actually growing in strength, and is indeed plotting war against The Elves and their Realms and intending to make alliance with the other Great Evils and Dark Powers of The Northern World in his assault. Gandalf would be gathering evidence, which could include Radagast's discovery that The Nine have been summoned to Dol Guldur and a great marshalling of arms being implemented there etc. etc.

In Reply To
I agree with your concerns pretty much 100%.

Also, putting all information from the book and previous films aside, the scene was handled pretty miserably. Since it's strictly consisted of 4 major charactes from LOTR, it seems like a cheap "dream team" type of council. It reeks of exposition without actually progressing the story itself. It's also almost a pointless scene since PJ is making it so ridiculously obvious that the necromancer is Sauron. It just makes the council look really stupid, like none of them can put two and two together.

This also brings a "necromancer problem" in to the film. If PJ was wise, he would have tried to make the necromancer mysterious, even to the audience. Even though we all know the necromancer is Sauron, we don't need to have it shoved in our faces. It only serves to make some of the most powerful beings in middle earth look like fools.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 25 2013, 10:23pm

Post #78 of 81 (84 views)
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concerning authority and the Istari [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that the Istari were not to be governors over others as part of their mission.
On the other hand, there happens to exist government throughout Middle Earth where they are serving and part of this government appears to be the White Council. We know that Saruman did not faithfully hold to his calling and set himself up as a kind of governor but Gandalf was highly faithful to his calling.

So if not governors themselves, would you expect Gandalf and the other Istari to be more like policemen or enforcers sent by the Valar to regulate and stand above those Middle-Earthly authorities, or would you expect the Istari to be more like prophets or the like, holding to the local authorities as best they were able to in good conscience?


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 25 2013, 10:37pm

Post #79 of 81 (84 views)
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Prophets/Mystics. . . though they don't always hold to the prescribed edicts. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf, most clearly, behaves as he sees fit. He speaks his mind, whether with Elrond, Denethor or any other, though as Elrond and Galadriel greatly respect his wisdom, there is seldom any instance of a real conflict of will between them. Otherwise they would be reasonably respectful of the customs and rulers of the various realms. That said, it does not explain how the council came across. Rivendell is no more Galadriel's realm than it is Gandalf's or Saruman's, and yet of the three others, Elrond was shown the least defference by any, so right of lordship seems not to answer the matter.

In Reply To
I know that the Istari were not to be governors over others as part of their mission.
On the other hand, there happens to exist government throughout Middle Earth where they are serving and part of this government appears to be the White Council. We know that Saruman did not faithfully hold to his calling and set himself up as a kind of governor but Gandalf was highly faithful to his calling.

So if not governors themselves, would you expect Gandalf and the other Istari to be more like policemen or enforcers sent by the Valar to regulate and stand above those Middle-Earthly authorities, or would you expect the Istari to be more like prophets or the like, holding to the local authorities as best they were able to in good conscience?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Arannir
Valinor

Apr 26 2013, 6:47am

Post #80 of 81 (68 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I guess our perceptions depend on whom we talked to, then.

I can see all your arguments, as I did before in other threads.

I simply do not see his status being undermined by Galadriel in the movies - and I am kind of glad they never clarified the whole thing about Maia, Ainur and Valar... I think it is one of the nice things to find out when one dives into the lore after seeing the movies, as so many do - but nothing that has or should be told in the movies.


Arannir
Valinor

Apr 26 2013, 6:50am

Post #81 of 81 (77 views)
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Well, exactly... [In reply to] Can't Post

... this is why there had to be more than just the Fellowship... Elrond also establishes with his welcome speech that this is a much broader meeting.

Since they did not explain the White Council, I think it was done nicely non-verbial by only showing the four of them.

I certainly would not mind the WC being established more in DoS - but I think it serves the story they are telling very well, without really destroying the lore, since an ad-hoc meeting could have very well existed just of those four, depending on where the other members were at the point of the summoning.


I agree, however, that it would have been wiser to reveal Sauron from the start and make it a fight about whether he is strong enough to pose a threat.

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