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imin
Valinor
Apr 24 2013, 9:54pm
Post #26 of 45
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I think i am very similar to you in thinking about the films
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I think i gave the LOTR films more slack than i do AUJ and i think a lot of that is down to age - i was 14-16 when they came out and although had read the books i don't think i understood everything in them (still don't i guess!) and so was less fearful they would mess it up and had basically no expectations in comparison to the expectations i had for AUJ.
Like you the main concerns with AUJ are pace, tone, the colour grading/digital look, i am hoping with presumably more dol guldur stuff that the pace will be better and somehow they get some new digital colour graders, lol and tonally well its gone already so just go with the flow? lol.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 12:02am
Post #27 of 45
(263 views)
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I do think that expectations played a big part in why I came away disappointed with AUJ. But I want to be clear that even with expectations and a different age, I think that AUJ just isn't up to the same cinematic level as the LOTR films. The pacing, tone, cinematography, CGI - all of these things are done with a greater deftness in the previous trilogy, IMO.
About the changes, I think that the ones in LOTR for the most part made sense. Did they always? No, but much of the time I understood what they were doing and why. I also think that most of the changes feel like Tolkien to me. Raising Azog from the dead, having a ridiculous CGI bunny-sled chase, turning the stone giants into a video game - these things don't feel in the spirit of Tolkien to me. I don't have a problem with changes that are done well (e.g. - the arrival of the dwarves at Bag-end/Thorin arriving late/Bilbo's Tookish side propelling him out of the Shire).
I hope all that made sense (I'm typing this up while taking a break from homework). I'm expecting to like DOS better simply because I'm not expecting perfection anymore. I know the film will have things I'm not keen on, but I hope I'm able to overlook them easier than with AUJ.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2013, 12:18am
Post #28 of 45
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I too will probably like DOS better than AUJ, simply because now I know what to expect from Peter Jackson. Knowing now that the bar is set pretty low when compared to LOTR, I shouldn't be too disappointed. I too went into AUJ expecting to have something with the feel of Tolkien like LOTR did. I wasn't expecting page by page verbatim, but something like the LOTR with a more realistic feel to it, not some OTT cartoonish version of middle earth were practical laws of physics do not exist.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 12:34am
Post #29 of 45
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is that PJ did hit brilliance on level with or even surpassing the LOTR films on a few occasions (the narrated portion of the prologue, good morning conversation, arrival of the dwarves, Bilbo leaving the Shire), but somehow the film lost its way after that. I actually think even the troll scene was done really well (even with the snot gag and parasites). The problems came when he deviated from the book or went over the top with CGI action sequences.
Ah well...I now know what to expect from DOS. I expect the spider scenes, the barrel escape, and Bilbo's conversation with Smaug to be excellent. If I like anything else I'll be incredibly satisfied with the film.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 10:08am
Post #30 of 45
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Makes sense and i completely agree
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It's a combination of factors that has made it not as good - some our own doing of having too high expectations but more importantly it's down to the film simply not being as good at the end of the day - it's not terrible but it's just not amazing like the LOTR movies either.
As you say the problems in LOTR were either understandable or at least in keeping with the book. For AUJ there are the bigger problems of pace, balance, tone which affect all aspects of the film. Along with specific scenes as you mention.
I also think i will like DOS more as i will go into the cinema thinking it will be like AUJ not LOTR and if it's better than AUJ then i will be really happy as it will be a nice surprise!
I am generally a positive person (might not know from this forum where i have complained about AUJ, lol) though and so think to myself 'this time it's going to be awesome!' and then my expectations gradually rise without me being aware almost, lol.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 2:41pm
Post #31 of 45
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Reading the last few posts between you all I thought I'd jump in.
Age does come into play when you're willing to let things go but I don't think that is a major factor. When The Fellowship of the Ring came out I had just turned 20 years old. So I'm a fair amount older than the both of you and most of the changes didn't bother me as we made our way through. Now, to be fair I didn't jump into the book until after I seen The Fellowship of the Ring. I've read it multiple times since then compared it to the movie and I feel that one doesn't really have anything I don't care for other than Gimli's fart. The Two Towers I don't care for TE Faramir but like the expansion in the EE making him more like his book counterpart but I don't care for Frodo showing the Nazgul the Ring. That just doesn't make anysense to me. In The Return of the King some of Gimli's gags are a bit much and overplayed by this point and my super main issue is Frodo sending Sam away. This to me is a big issue and its interesting to read that some don't mind it but for me this is a bigger issue than some of the complaints I see coming about AUJ. I was 31 when AUJ came out in December and I have less issues than some of you who are younger than I am. So I do think age is a factor I think its just more of a personal thing.
You and I have talked about expectations before. This is something I think is personal again much like what we're willing to accept. My expectations were sky high and depsite a few things I didn't like within the movie they were met. For me the some of the issues I see as far as pacing, tone, feel all were what I wanted and expected. Could there be tweaks? Sure. Would I make some tweaks? Sure.There is only one moment that felt OTT as some have put it and thats when the bridge is turned into a theme part ride ending with The Goblin King. As a whole despite tweaks to the story this very much feels like Middle-earth and feels like Tolkien. So for me it the expectations were met. Understanding the personal nature of this I can accept others may not feel this way. I will say my personal bar is even higher than it was going into AUJ. That for me is how impressed I was with this movie.
I will say The Hobbit wasn't as good as The Lord of the Rings but for me The Hobbit book isn't as good as The Lord of the Rings books. They're both great but great for different reasons I guess is what I'm saying. So for me The Hobbit: AUJ was as good at being The Hobbit as The Lord of the Rings Trilogy was as good at being The Lord of the Rings.
You said something that I think people need to think about and something I know I've mentioned. You now know it isn't going to be like The Lord of the Rings. I firmly believe this was a major issue for a lot of people. Even people who've read the book and know The Hobbit is much less mature as a whole than The Lord of the Rings. How much that was a factor again is something personal to each. For me personally I was able to go accepting The Hobbit would be lighter than The Lord of the Rings but also would have plenty of mature moments. I got that and I think for me that is why I came out of the movie just loving it.
Sorry for the long post but you and Aradmire had thoughts I wanted to jump in on real quick.
(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2013, 2:43pm)
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 6:21pm
Post #32 of 45
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That's just the thing, though, I don't think that The Hobbit is as good at being The Hobbit as LOTR is at being LOTR. I said above that there were some real brilliant bits in The Hobbit, and those bits are where The Hobbit does its best to be The Hobbit. It tries too hard to be LOTR while also trying to be The Hobbit.
I also think that the tone/lightheartedness of The Hobbit was not reflected in AUJ. There is a childishness in the movie that is not at all the same as the whimsy of the book. In places it tries to rival the grandness of LOTR, and in others it has over-the-top CGI action scenes or jokes aimed at kindergardeners.
I hope, if nothing else, that the tone of the next two films is a little more consistent. I think it will be because the book's tone begins to change anyway.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 6:54pm
Post #33 of 45
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I understand that's the opposite side of the coin and I resepect that. I however have to disagree. I fully believe what I said. I think as a whole The Hobbit does a good job at being The Hobbit. The tone, story, feel, characters, etc all It does some of keeping the tone from The Lord of the Rings but I believe it does a pretty solid job of walking the line and not falling to one side too much.
I totally disagree. I think the movie captured that feeling pretty perfectly. The bridge ride scene was a bit much but as a whole it felt as I said very much the light nature of the book. Though I could lose a four things (snot, close up of drinking, belching, and bird crap) that would maybe help make it a bit more serious in nature. I feel like there were lots of moments that looked as amazing as anything we saw in The Lord of the Rings and really only one moment that I thought the CGI was too much (bridge falling sequence).
So all that said when I watch the movie I really feel like the book has come to life. Its not spot on mind you but it keeps the heart and soul of everything. For me it also improves say something like Thorin who in the book is more of a jerk the entire time. He's far more likeable character in this movie with just the right amount of jerkness for me.
I expect the next two films will get more mature. The book did that and I figure the movies will as well.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 9:38pm
Post #34 of 45
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I think once I have all three films and can fast forward through everything that isn't from the book, I'll be thankful that I at least have those scenes.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 10:14pm
Post #35 of 45
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I see it a little differently.
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When i talk about expectations and then it not being like LOTR, i don't mean it's not in the same style or tone as LOTR i mean it's not as good to me as LOTR e.g. i give LOTR say 9/10 but AUJ 6/10. I was not expecting AUJ to be like in content or tone LOTR i was just hoping it would be as well made a film. If that makes sense?
For me the tone is wrong if comparing to the book - its somewhere between The Hobbit book and LOTR movies or as others have said LOTR lite to give it a catchy title, lol. Though as has been said - silliness is not the same as whimsy and there are some pretty dark things happening even in these chapters of the book, Gandalf killing the Great Goblin comes to mind. I also think nostalgia comes into play a little as i read this when i was a child which is a little different to you reading it in your twenties and at one time it was my favourite book ever and i read it over and over as a little kid thinking i was very grown up having a book with maps, lol.
For me some of the things wrong with it are certain scenes but other things are more far reaching such as the films pace, balance and tone and for me it's colour grading. All these issues were not in LOTR or any good film, i just compare it on a film to film basis in this way as they are using source material from same author, same director, same crew (mostly) etc.
I understand you feel it is probably a better adaptation which is tonally perfect and only has very minor flaws but to say anyone who didn't like it because they were expecting LOTR is just not true - i wanted it to be the hobbit but that isn't what we got.
I would have settled for AUJ with all its OTT scenes had it's pacing been better and just looked better (colour grading) - but it didn't.
All this though doesn't stop me hoping DoS will be different and improve as a film (not thinking about Tolkien) and secondly as an adaptation.
I think what the film generally got right was costumes and location shooting, gollum looked amazing as did the trolls. Elrond was performed much better this time by Hugo Weaving and MF was very good as was Ian and Richard.
I wouldn't have replied but i felt i had to say i didn't expect it to BE lotr just as good a film as LOTR were. Hope that makes sense? lol.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 10:22pm
Post #36 of 45
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There are parts i felt were done extremely well and i felt were some of the best of M-e we have seen on film - those are the bag end scenes and gandalf's convo with bilbo. I liked most of the prologue and of course riddles in the dark and seeing a little glimpse of Smaug at the end was really cool.
So it's not like i totally hated the film, i will just have to use the skip button a little more than with LOTR, lol.
I might also fiddle around with TV settings to try and get a colour i prefer more!
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 25 2013, 10:47pm
Post #37 of 45
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Tone: I agree that the tone is a bit off from The Hobbit as a book, but rather than just saying something between LotR and TH, I'd set it somewhere between LotR and the Appendices of RotK.
TH has lots of humor of all kinds including but not limited to silliness, whimsy, body-humor, schoolyard name-calling, and subtle riddles. I was thrilled to see such a wide span of humor types in AUJ. That was no small feat!
Pace: I can't wait to see him on film.
Balance: Yes, the movie is not consistent. It "ramps up" like a roller-coaster. How rude to imagine your theater seats jumping up and throwing you around a winding track after slowly clicking up to a comfortable (well not really) and lovely view like that!
Wishing it was better like LotR doesn't mean expecting it to be like LotR: ... ... ok ... ... I have to think about that one a lot - it is twisting up in my mind - especially in the context of the rest of the criticisms in this thread - most of which are riddled with the acronym LOTR over and over in them ...
I do expect both TABA and DOS to be far more popular but I don't know if I will like any movie better than the opening scene of AUJ ever for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, I just don't watch movies or TV or play video games at all anymore these days. I just am too buried in work, professional development, and creative pursuits. I'd say that my non-viewing of the movie was evidence of disinterest and lack of replay value except that I have not watched anything, actually (except what I see at work) since getting the video and watching as much of it as I could in the spare time I had for that kind of thing - wait - there was something on at my mom's house the other day but I can't even remember what it was and missed most of it anyway.
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 10:54pm
Post #38 of 45
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Having all three films will be fantastic. Especially if they're on par for me anyways with how good this one is. I'll enjoy each film I hope from start to finish.
(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2013, 10:54pm)
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 10:55pm
Post #39 of 45
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How about i wish AUJ was better like the Godfather film is (to me) but i don't want it to be the Godfather movie, lol.
Could use any film which i think is a better film. The comparisons to LOTR are added into the thread as i felt tonally the LOTR was closer to the source material than i felt AUJ was to The Hobbit and i wish AUJ could be more like LOTR in the respect of being 'more in the spirit of the book'. It does not mean i wish for a film which was called the hobbit but was really LOTR.
For me that makes perfect sense but then it might not for you and Ardamire will have to explain it better as he feels the same way as i do. 
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
(This post was edited by imin on Apr 25 2013, 10:55pm)
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 11:24pm
Post #40 of 45
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Different strokes for different folks
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That's fair. I'd give The Lord of the Rings Trilogy as a whole 9.5 and so far I'd give The Hobbit a 9/10. What you said there makes sense but I have to totally disagree with you on it.
I understand that. I don't think the tone was wrong because as a whole it felt as if it was The Hobbit but I do think it balanced enough to blend in the proper amounts of The Lord of the Rings in. I personally loved that. So for me like I said I felt the balance worked. I agree about the silliness/whimsy debate and again I think the movie did a solid job outside a few things which I disliked (mentioned a few times already). I'm sure that totally comes into play. There is a difference between for sure in the ages we read them. I do wish I had gotten into Tolkien at a much earlier age.
There are a few scenes I don't like but there are scenes I don't like within The Lord of the Rings. I could live without the stuff I've mentioned before about The Hobbit but I really do dislike Frodo showing the Nazgul the Ring/Frodo sending Sam a way so much more. Pacing, Balance, and Tone as I've said I really thought were just fine. I really thought the way the movie looked (color grading) was fantastic. It to me was so beautiful I wouldn't have even thought that to be an issue at all.
I wouldn't say that to be 100% but I do think there were many people that expected this. I have no problems saying that and feel very confident in saying so. I wanted it to be The Hobbit and I feel that's what we got. So we will have to agree to disagree on what we did or didn't get.
Again we will have to agree to disagree on it being OTT or your other issues. All I can say is I just feel very strongly that these things were not issues. I hope that comes across ok without looking like a jerk.
I hope others that didn't like AUJ as much as I did like DoS more. For me I just want it to continue the impressive film we got with AUJ
I agree all those things were great. I will say I thought Weaving did just fine in The Lord of the Rings and was the same here.
I'm glad you did. I like the discussion. Especially with people that won't rip me a part with insults. So your issues make sense. I can't agree with a decent chunk. I hope as I said mine comes across respectful.
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 11:31pm
Post #41 of 45
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Very respectful and non jerk like
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So no worries there and i am just glad you actually understand what i am trying to say in posts, haha. Hopefully you don't feel like i am being a jerk to you or anything like that.
I'm ok with others liking it and disagreeing - if everyone felt the same then the world would be so dull! Plus you got to enjoy something which you now love so that's awesome and i hope we both feel that way come DoS and TABA.
I wish we could meet up and watch the film together so i could say this is what i mean about the colour or have you explain how this part is perfect etc, would be good fun
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 25 2013, 11:42pm
Post #42 of 45
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I probably sounded like a jerk - sorry for that.
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This is often what happens when a person is brisk and to-the-point without couching in enough verbiage to circumvent the inevitable reading-into of things that happens. I have often caught myself in this problem, to be honest, where I don't think enough about "how something could be taken" and create friction that way inadvertently.
I will admit that I didn't think enough about how my comments would be taken or make others feel - either in a negative or positive way sensitively. I just blurted out exactly what I was thinking without enough filtering ... stream-of-consciousness style. My apologies. I guess that if I don't have time to make a very thoughtful and careful post I might be better off waiting until I am able to do so.
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imin
Valinor
Apr 25 2013, 11:55pm
Post #43 of 45
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your post wasn't replied to mine
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But i will just say i haven't felt you were being a jerk at all in this or any thread - just saying what you think which is fine by me.
Sometimes i do feel like i don't take into account how things could be taken as i forget people can't hear me say the words i am typing, thus leading to people perhaps getting upset/offended when i didn't intend any negative basis to comments.
It can be hard sometimes getting across what you want in a concise manner but also in a way that people can't read into a different way than it was intended!
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 26 2013, 12:24am
Post #44 of 45
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Glad about that. Sometimes I can be a bit blunt or have my words on screen not come out quite like how my emotional state is when writing them. I totally get what you're saying. I understand it because I feel the same passion for the other side of the coin. Nope not at all. I've said before you are one of the opinions I look for with posts. I enjoy the content of them
It does help make the world go round and you do learn things that way. I wish so badly for my fellow Tolkien fans they enjoy the following two movies more.
That would be awesome.  I actually did that with a friend of mine here and we bounced ideas off each other why she felt the movie was an 8 and I felt it was a 9.
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Elessar
Valinor
Apr 26 2013, 12:28am
Post #45 of 45
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Your post didn't come across that way at all. So no worries.
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