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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
smaug or azog? (controversial)
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Arannir
Valinor

Apr 23 2013, 7:12am

Post #26 of 40 (200 views)
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I have not met one person... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... who did not know the story who hadn't thought that Azog was also in the book.

They were all surprised that he hadn't because it seemed like a logical plotline to them.

I also felt from the beginning that - though made up - his storyline does not feel un-Tolkien at all. One might discuss un-necessary etc. but I never saw him being written worse than the orcs or villains that Tolkien wrote about. Although this might seem like a sakrileg to say for many here ;-)


I would also disagree with statements above that Azog will overshadow Smaug. When I look through boards like IMDB and similar ones, people are all excited to finally see the dragon. Once revealed and given his conversation with Bilbo and especially his death, I can see no way whatsoever Azog could overshadow him even if he might have more screen-time in total through involvements with the Sauron storyline or the Bot5A. He simply remains the DRAGON. End of story Cool


(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 23 2013, 7:15am)


joroberts694
Registered User

Apr 23 2013, 7:16am

Post #27 of 40 (162 views)
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I'm for Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post

At the end of the day, the story is better with the dragon than any other for the next two movies. the story is about them taking the mountain back, not the feud of the dwarf line.
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jtarkey
Rohan


Apr 23 2013, 9:24am

Post #28 of 40 (179 views)
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Honestly, I'm all for changes that make the story work better on screen... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is why I respect a lot of the changes made to LOTR. It all made perfect sense from a cinematic perspective.

However, with AUJ, I feel the changes that were made served only to water down the original story instead of enhance it. That is why Azog is a failure in my mind. He takes up precious screen time that could have been spent developing Bilbo and the dwarves. He is also (arguably) the largest change to the text that PJ and CO. have ever committed.

For me it's the opposite of your perspective. All of my friends and family felt Azog was cliche' and out of place, even before I told them he wasn't a major part of the book.

His blue skin is really bothering me lately. He isn't even "pale". His skin has no flesh tone to it whatsoever. He is also "CG clean" to the extreme. My views on him were confirmed after learning his design was changed only a couple months before the premier... Ughh

He just reeks of bad design, storytelling, and execution.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 9:44am

Post #29 of 40 (148 views)
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I haven't read the book for ages [In reply to] Can't Post

So to me Azog does not seem out of place in the story – his inclusion is logical when one does not constantly refer to the book.

As far as the whole character goes, I like his voice and the fact that he speaks Orkish. The motion capture is very well done – especially his movements when he swings weapons and crouches, and the way he reins his Warg around towards the end of the film. I would have preferred an actor in prosthetics, but do actually think he shows more expression than many of the frozen-faced non-CGI creatures in LOTR.


In Reply To
Does anybody have any input from friends/family who have only seen AUJ, and not read 'The Hobbit'? I myself wonder if Azog just seems completely out of place when I'm watching the movie because I know he's not in the book. I think it's hard to objectively judge whether that's the case or not. Do non-readers like him as a villain?



imin
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:18am

Post #30 of 40 (145 views)
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I wonder why he waited so long to wipe out the line of Durin? [In reply to] Can't Post

He basically just healed for what 60 years? That's a long time by anyone's standards. i think give it a year at most and he would be healed and then he just chilled out for 59 years, lol.

I can see why they added him but that was something my GF brought up after the film and she has never read any Tolkien books before and essentially not watched the LOTR films either.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:26am

Post #31 of 40 (149 views)
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Well, what do Orcs normally do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps he just hung around with other Orcs? Maybe he couldn't find Thorin?

It wasn't something I felt the need to question, but then because this is fantasy there are a lot of things that I can 'suspend disbelief' about and not get worked up about. It's errors in logic/facts in documentaries, or dramas purporting to be fact, that get me going.


In Reply To
He basically just healed for what 60 years? That's a long time by anyone's standards. i think give it a year at most and he would be healed and then he just chilled out for 59 years, lol.

I can see why they added him but that was something my GF brought up after the film and she has never read any Tolkien books before and essentially not watched the LOTR films either.



Arannir
Valinor

Apr 23 2013, 11:37am

Post #32 of 40 (144 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

... we might get an explanation for that.

I once had the idea that maybe the Gandalf/Thrain conversation in Dol Guldur might have been overheard and this is why Sauron's minions hunt the company.

Something like that...


imin
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:37am

Post #33 of 40 (145 views)
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I don't think it got her going [In reply to] Can't Post

It was more just a question that was raised by her and she is someone who likes fantasy but has not read any Tolkien books.

Considering this is something that Tolkien i think was incredibly good at thinking about and giving reasonable answers for myself i felt it was an interesting point for her to bring up.

Obviously we are not going to see eye to eye on this but for me it was an interesting point that it stuck out to her as something to ask me (she sees me as someone who knows a bit about Tolkien - though really i don't compared to many!)

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


imin
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:39am

Post #34 of 40 (137 views)
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yeah that would be a nice way to tie that off [In reply to] Can't Post

seems plausible and fits in with the rest of the story.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:57am

Post #35 of 40 (127 views)
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Yes, true [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the sort of thing I might question briefly and then forget about (when it comes to fantasy), as long as the entire story makes sense to me.

I guess Tolkien was good at providing explanations for many things – but then he was very bad at making characters in his story real.

You are certainly more of an expert than I am, judging by your posts on Tolkien's work!


In Reply To
It was more just a question that was raised by her and she is someone who likes fantasy but has not read any Tolkien books.

Considering this is something that Tolkien i think was incredibly good at thinking about and giving reasonable answers for myself i felt it was an interesting point for her to bring up.

Obviously we are not going to see eye to eye on this but for me it was an interesting point that it stuck out to her as something to ask me (she sees me as someone who knows a bit about Tolkien - though really i don't compared to many!)



imin
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 12:19pm

Post #36 of 40 (120 views)
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It depends on the fantasy for me [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes they are in worlds or cities where things just happen and we take it as part of that world that things do just randomly occur and no explanation is needed.

It stuck out to me as i have read the books so that is to be expected i think. For people who haven't read the books i don't see why one would assume he wasn't in the book as he has a relatively large part to play in the film and looks like it will continue in the next two films - not dead etc. I think he is definitely more of an annoyance to people who have read the book as they know what they are missing or what has changed and quite a few feel the written version of events was superior to this character - of course others will disagree.

I don't really agree that Tolkien couldn't make characters real but i do think a strength of his was in creating a very real/believable world, environment (for me at least anyway).

Thank you for your kind comment and if i am more an expert than you on Tolkien then i think you are more so on the films! Smile

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 1:18pm

Post #37 of 40 (126 views)
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I have actually read the books multiple times [In reply to] Can't Post

…but not for a few years (LOTR and The Hobbit). However, I am deliberately not rereading them because I can remember how disappointed I was initially with FOTR, after foolishly rereading it just before I saw the film!

Yes, about Tolkien, I do agree that he could create really believable environments, habitats and atmosphere – I remember vivid descriptions of plants, for example. However, when it comes to individuals, apart from Gandalf and the Hobbits, I never really saw the characters clearly. Aragorn of the book, for example, was (for me) the hero archetype, as were all of the 'heroic' figures. The Dwarves in The Hobbit are very unclear and somewhat like 'Snow White dwarves' – even Thorin, who I always imagined as a black-haired figure with whom one could not empathise. That's what I like about PJ's work – he can create characters that are much more real to me than the characters in the book, though I do not like some of the casting choices he made for the LOTR films. (I'm delighted with the casting choices so far for The Hobbit, and that is my main reason why I like the film so much: casting and good acting.)

I also love the sense of being back in Middle-Earth (the visuals and the music in the films are remarkable).


In Reply To
Sometimes they are in worlds or cities where things just happen and we take it as part of that world that things do just randomly occur and no explanation is needed.

It stuck out to me as i have read the books so that is to be expected i think. For people who haven't read the books i don't see why one would assume he wasn't in the book as he has a relatively large part to play in the film and looks like it will continue in the next two films - not dead etc. I think he is definitely more of an annoyance to people who have read the book as they know what they are missing or what has changed and quite a few feel the written version of events was superior to this character - of course others will disagree.

I don't really agree that Tolkien couldn't make characters real but i do think a strength of his was in creating a very real/believable world, environment (for me at least anyway).

Thank you for your kind comment and if i am more an expert than you on Tolkien then i think you are more so on the films! Smile



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Apr 23 2013, 5:51pm

Post #38 of 40 (92 views)
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Fantasy and sci-fi [In reply to] Can't Post

need internal logic to work as a narrative. Just because there's magic rings and lightsabers doesn't mean that things don't need to make sense. I get tired of the "it's fantasy so anything goes" argument.


cats16
Tol Eressea

Apr 23 2013, 6:28pm

Post #39 of 40 (85 views)
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I agree with Arannir here [In reply to] Can't Post

Non-book readers that I've spoken to, without question, saw Azog as a logical character for the story. They didn't have any problems, or confusion, as to why he was doing what he was.

I've thought from day one that the logic behind keeping Azog alive must lead back to Bolg. There must be some connection between them, even if it isn't directly shown to be father and son, that creates the conflict at the BoFA. If not, they could have easily named Azog "Bolg", and a lot of problems would have been avoided. I know many here think PJ is just carving his own stone with this storyline, and I fully hear you. But for me, I just think that this change must, in some way, act as the catalyst of conflict for the trilogy's final act. And obviously we have not been presented with all of the surrounding facts, so nothing is certain right now.

I'm just glad, for my own sake, I can sit back and let the events unfold for themselves. Like many non-book readers I've spoken with, I accept the story being told and eagerly await further insight into what we've seen so far.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 9:25pm

Post #40 of 40 (101 views)
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Well, I guess our opinions just differ [In reply to] Can't Post

…and our ways of looking at things. The 'internal logic' of The Hobbit was satisfactory to me, and I felt no need to obsess about any rupture in logic. And I certainly don't think that just because 'it's fantasy so anything goes'. It's just that in this instance, the narrative worked fine for me.


In Reply To
need internal logic to work as a narrative. Just because there's magic rings and lightsabers doesn't mean that things don't need to make sense. I get tired of the "it's fantasy so anything goes" argument.


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