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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Bilbo kills an Orc
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 3:19am

Post #26 of 48 (335 views)
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I know Faramir isn't the main character... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Faramir isn't the main character of the story. So I would argue that changes to his character rank smaller than any changes they would make to Bilbo. An equivalent would be if they'd significantly altered a major character aspect of Frodo in LotR.


If PJ changes Bilbo's role, it's gonna overtake the Filmamir-crime. That's what I said. Wink

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 3:30am

Post #27 of 48 (336 views)
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i see your point...regarding "Bilbo: First Blood" [In reply to] Can't Post

but eh, i really don't think Bilbo killing a warg or a orc is a big deal because in the spider scene Bilbo is actually coming to the defense of the dwarves, in Bilbo killing the orc/warg its more in self-defense. Although, it might end up being Bilbo with the aid of some wood elves in DOS.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 3:33am

Post #28 of 48 (336 views)
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I think it's actually the opposite. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but eh, i really don't think Bilbo killing a warg or a orc is a big deal because in the spider scene Bilbo is actually coming to the defense of the dwarves, in Bilbo killing the orc/warg its more in self-defense.



Bilbo kills the first spider (after which he names Sting) for self-defense. And Bilbo killing the orc was surely not self-defense though the warg was.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 5:30am

Post #29 of 48 (294 views)
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well yeah i see your point [In reply to] Can't Post

since a spider "stings" maybe he named it his "own sting" in PJ's version.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Apr 22 2013, 5:50am

Post #30 of 48 (315 views)
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Naming of Sting [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Bilbo killing the orc and warg would preclude him giving his sword a name later. Rather than naming it for his first kill, the context becomes "I've slain a few foes. I'm becoming a warrior. It's time I give you a name." His weapon has performed great deeds in battle, meeting Balin's criteria for naming it.

Don't get me wrong, I hate that orc attack scene as well (as I do most of the Azog plotline). But it's not a complete deal-breaker. Bilbo wasn't necessarily naming the sword after the spiders. Spiders don't sting, they bite. The sword itself has a sharp sting that is dealt to Bilbo's enemies. I too wish that Jackson was more respectful of Tolkien's original intentions but that ship has pretty much sailed. The context for Sting has changed but can still work.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 6:22am

Post #31 of 48 (303 views)
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i agree [In reply to] Can't Post

"swords are named for the great deeds they've done in battle." -Balin. deed(s)


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 22 2013, 7:03am

Post #32 of 48 (314 views)
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In the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I think, it's the spiders who give Bilbo the idea for the name. One of them says, '... He's got a sting has he?'

I don't see why that should not still work in some form or other in the movie even if Bilbo killed something else with his sword before. If anything, it might reflect the way Bilbo grows and changes. After he has killed a warg, an orc and then some spiders, he is ready to name his sword, and he thinks the sword now deserves a name...


Thorins_apprentice
Rohan


Apr 22 2013, 7:09am

Post #33 of 48 (302 views)
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Maybe he feels most renowned for killing a big,gigantic,ferocious spider. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink and therefore names it sting.

We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.



emre43
Lorien

Apr 22 2013, 7:17am

Post #34 of 48 (288 views)
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Agreed. This [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This scene takes place right after Bilbo once a for all throws in his lot with the dwarves. He is not holding back any longer. And remember that Thorin saved his life not too long ago when Thorin didn't particularly care if Bilbo lived or died. Bilbo sees a lost cause and his Tookish side takes over and he goes to Thorin's aid. This seems natural and right to me.

And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.



Neimod
The Shire

Apr 22 2013, 12:06pm

Post #35 of 48 (263 views)
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I agree with this as well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
This scene takes place right after Bilbo once a for all throws in his lot with the dwarves. He is not holding back any longer. And remember that Thorin saved his life not too long ago when Thorin didn't particularly care if Bilbo lived or died. Bilbo sees a lost cause and his Tookish side takes over and he goes to Thorin's aid. This seems natural and right to me.

And it may be that this is a set-up scene that will make Bilbo's actions with the spiders more believable.




Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 22 2013, 4:50pm

Post #36 of 48 (264 views)
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Poor Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

his character has been changed for the worst, he gets to kill something just to join the cool boys club, and because they decided Thorin should do a fake heroic stand off with a fake character because its kool? then he gets to use Sting far to early thus robbing him of naming it Sting because of Spiders? then he gets to go to Rivendell and not fall in love with it, well we didnt see it anyway, maybe we have to imagine that slightly important fact. then he gets upstaged at every turn by Thorin and his problems with the million enemies hes got cos he's grumpy. poor poor Bilbo.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 22 2013, 6:32pm

Post #37 of 48 (239 views)
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I've seen that photo... [In reply to] Can't Post

but there is nothing to say Bilbo is the one fighting the spiders. he may have merely killed one to get away and the webbing on sting is from cutting himself and the others free of the webs. I know somewhere it was said the elves are fighting spiders but is it the same spiders Bilbo is supposed to deal with, a different bunch of spiders, or will Jackson combine all the elements into one big action sequence. Bilbo waking up covered in webs, ends up killing one spider just as Tauriel and Legolas come swooping in with a host of elves killing the rest of the spiders and taking the dwarfs captive.... I'm hoping for Bilbo yelling atter cop leading them away and killing all the spiders but what is Peter Jackson actually going to do? will he really miss out on some action sequence with the elves by using what was written in the book instead? I guess we'll just have to wait and see and pray its like the book IMO


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Apr 22 2013, 6:36pm)


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Apr 22 2013, 7:49pm

Post #38 of 48 (223 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I imagine Bilbo deciding to finally name sting after killing the spider, or, for movie purpose should I say spiderS?

by the way... the first time Hobbits in FOTR stabbed (or hit) orcs was:



"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


thorinoakenshield
Rivendell


Apr 22 2013, 8:34pm

Post #39 of 48 (226 views)
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The Mirkwood LEGO set comes with Legolas and Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

so I assume they will be fighting in the movie as well.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2013, 12:52am

Post #40 of 48 (193 views)
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which is what I fear... [In reply to] Can't Post

the scene will be taken away from Bilbo just to give Peter Jackson's and Ms Boyens fancy new Xena elf, some weight in the films.Unsure I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that the elves find different spiders do deal with instead of Bilbo's spiders.Wink


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Apr 23 2013, 2:41am

Post #41 of 48 (196 views)
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There's just so much... [In reply to] Can't Post

in these films that flies in the face of Tolkien that I'm forced to just consider these films a retelling of the Quest of Erebor (as if it were a real historical event) rather than an adaptation of Tolkien's novel. It's funny because I never had any problem with the changes in LotR because the films intrinsically felt like The Lord of the Rings to me. Granted, I'd only just started to read the books a year or two before the films came out, so the promotional material of the films could possibly have influenced my perception of the novel - but still, I felt like the movies had nailed the heart and soul of the books.

Whereas with The Hobbit, it just feels like something different. The key plot points are there, but all the details are screwed up. Tolkien's cannon mythology has been manhandled, the reason for the dwarves' quest has been transformed into something noble (from reclaiming treasure to reclaiming their homeland), Thorin doesn't resemble his book self at all, a major villain is present that wasn't even in the narrative of the book, and now one of Bilbo's main character moments is looking to be significantly diluted (as you said, to make room for a newly invented elf character that was never in Tolkien's story!).

It's so funny, because I was always the person going on about the necessity to look at the books and films as different entities when it came to LotR and not get annoyed about differences. But now I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum. Crazy

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 23 2013, 2:43am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2013, 3:00am

Post #42 of 48 (187 views)
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we'll just have to wait and see I guess... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It's so funny, because I was always the person going on about the necessity to look at the books and films as different entities when it came to LotR and not get annoyed about differences. But now I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum

I've been reading the Hobbit now for 36 years, I have visualized it in my head like seeing a film for decades now. And believe it or not I really tried to separate the two as totally different entities. I just can't. To me its the story I love, the one that Tolkien wrote. Not some story with Azog the defiler chasing the dwarfs, Or the Necromancer making more of an impact than he does in the book. Not something with bunny sleds or wizards covered in bird poop. The story Tolkien wrote is what I love.... BUT I also find the visuals of Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy are brilliant, breathtaking at times and perfect to represent middle earth. I think had they kept that realistic feel of the LOTR and combined it with the story of the Hobbit it would have been perfect. Instead of making up content and trying to pass it off as something its not.

Hopefully Tauriel will be a lot less than what I expect she will be. I am already seeing her as some Xena warrior elf character who's sole inclusion was to break up the boys club feel of Tolkien's work. I hope they keep Bilbo's key moment of "stinging" the spiders instead of letting elves ruin that special moment for him. Like I said earlier they will probably merge the events having Bilbo start out with the spiders but being helped out by the elves for some fancy 3D flared action extravaganza.




Nira
Lorien


Apr 23 2013, 3:48am

Post #43 of 48 (173 views)
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I completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

That scene bothered me because Bilbo never kills anyone (save the spider, but I don't count a spider the same). Frodo, following suit never kills anyone either. This fact is a testiment to their characters.

Yes, the other points you mentioned bother me as well, but the insult to his character miffs me the most.

It feels like they rushed to piece this story arc together and it just doesn't fit right...this is one example of that.

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise


Smeagol Bagginsess
Rivendell


Apr 23 2013, 4:51am

Post #44 of 48 (188 views)
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On the topic of Elves killing spiders: [In reply to] Can't Post

I surely would not like it if they dilute Bilbo's shining moment to give the elves a little bit of highlight. But I am okay with it if they play it out like this:

Dwarves are captured by spiders. Bilbo helps in rescuing the dwarves and kills one or two spiders. The dwarves and Bilbo run away, chased by spiders. And then the elves come and kill of the remaining spiders.

In that way, Bilbo gets to become the hero and the elves get some action too. Tolkien's themes are maintained here and PJ does his action sequences too.

And I think it'd be a nice introduction of Wood-elves since the lights going on and off in Thranduil's dinner-party is not cinematically pleasing to many.

I am the Grandson of Samwise Gamgee. My grandpa loved Frodo uncle and Frodo uncle loved his pet, Smeagol. So I am named Smeagol Bagginsess! Ain't I cute?

(This post was edited by Smeagol Bagginsess on Apr 23 2013, 4:52am)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 23 2013, 6:49am

Post #45 of 48 (154 views)
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Agreed. I think that scenario is probably the best we can hope for, now... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt


imin
Valinor


Apr 23 2013, 11:20am

Post #46 of 48 (146 views)
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Could not agree with you more :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Like many others do as well!

We should make our own hobbit movie, lol.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Apr 24 2013, 11:35am

Post #47 of 48 (118 views)
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if I ever win the lottery you guys will be the first to know [In reply to] Can't Post

I will need scriptwriters and a regular healthy kick up the backside when I got too 'spectacular'.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2013, 12:26pm

Post #48 of 48 (149 views)
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writing the script wouldn't be overly hard [In reply to] Can't Post

just refer back to Tolkien on a regularly consistent basis and everything will be fine Wink. Peter Jackson proved that many times with LOTR and the Hobbit when he stuck to the blueprint Tolkien gave him the films were fantastic and brilliant it was only when he deviated that they went too far OTT or were not as good as the rest of the films Tongue

Heck if I hit the lottery I'd be right there with youLaugh

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