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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Desolation of Smaug begin with a Flashback?
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 3:42am

Post #26 of 36 (241 views)
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Probably not the Thrain/Gandy/Dol Guldur scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandy is too surprised by the "old fortress" not being abandoned in AUJ...it's didn't seem like he'd already had had an encounter there which might have hinted at dark goings-on.

IMO it just wouldn't work...they're going to have to rework it so it happens after Gandy leaves the company, sometime in Act 1.

Not sure what would work in its place, however...surely not the High Fells unless there's some action in there somewhere. The attack of Smaug, but from the perspective of Elves and Men (Thranduil and Girion)? I don't know...

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 5:08am

Post #27 of 36 (210 views)
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You make a fine point, and I think you are likely right, and most bets including mine are on something [In reply to] Can't Post

involving Gandalf and Thrain.

In Reply To
Some info if you haven't already noticed

FoTR : first scene. The Prologue of the One Ring.

TTT: first scene.Flashback. Gandalf v/s Balrog.

RoTK: first scene.Flashback. Gollum's past.

TH: first scene. AUJ : Erebor Flashback.


So it seems every movie starts either with a prologue or a flashback. I think PJ can't imagine to start a movie without a reference to the past. And I believe there's a high chance this will happen with TH:TDS too.


What are your theories on what PJ will put as the starting ( if ever ) scene in TH: DOS?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 18 2013, 5:10am

Post #28 of 36 (216 views)
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I disagree here. He does not seemed surprised there, more wary and curious. [In reply to] Can't Post

He does not scoff at the notion of something being in the old fortress. He turns with the look of one who is having a fear confirmed, but who wants more evidence before accepting the truth.

How would he know the old fortress was abandoned anyway? I think it makes the most sense for him to have gone there before, but found only Thrain and the orcs who had captured him. Having driven away the orcs himself, and found nothing else, he would then be able to think the fortress abandoned, even though he may have had a bad feeling and lingering doubts.

In Reply To
Gandy is too surprised by the "old fortress" not being abandoned in AUJ...it's didn't seem like he'd already had had an encounter there which might have hinted at dark goings-on.

IMO it just wouldn't work...they're going to have to rework it so it happens after Gandy leaves the company, sometime in Act 1.

Not sure what would work in its place, however...surely not the High Fells unless there's some action in there somewhere. The attack of Smaug, but from the perspective of Elves and Men (Thranduil and Girion)? I don't know...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2013, 6:08am

Post #29 of 36 (191 views)
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well i agree But... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf does discover Thrain at Dol-Guldur as seen in the first Hobbit trailer...Remember, Gandalf's finding Thrain and given the key happened around 100 years prior to the quest for erebor so that could be why Gandalf was surprised by the news.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Apr 18 2013, 9:03am

Post #30 of 36 (182 views)
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Mad Thrain, the Key, Bolg and finally Bree [In reply to] Can't Post

This would be a great opening for DOS:

Starting with:
Gandalf in (a seemingly abandoned) Dol Guldur fighting the mad Thrain, getting the key and map of Erebor and promissing him to give it to his son Thorin when the time is right. Perhaps Bolg listened to them.
--> Solution to the "How came you by this?" question from AUJ
--> Solution to the "Who did you tell about your quest?" question from AUJ
--> Solution to the "He went missing, taken prisoner or killed; we did not know" question from AUJ
--> Introduction of Bolg son of Azog
--> First obvious connection between Dol Guldur (Necromancer/WC subplot) and Gundabad (Azog/Erebor mainplot)

Next scene:
Gandalf meets Thorin in Bree (but not telling him about the key and map yet) and tells him about a Hobbit.
--> Connection between main- and subplot with Bilbo
--> Fan gift with showing Bree and the Prancing Pony (funny but not necessary would be a cameo of a young Barliman Butterbur)

Cut to:
Bilbo (and the Company) on his way to Beorns house.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Rostron2
Gondor


Apr 18 2013, 6:28pm

Post #31 of 36 (174 views)
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Yes, maybe so [In reply to] Can't Post

As others have observed, the Gandalf/Thrain/Dol Guldur connection is a good tie-in.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2013, 7:46pm

Post #32 of 36 (95 views)
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Dain [In reply to] Can't Post

While i honestly believe that Gandalf/Thrain will likely be it, I had another thought:

What if this is when they introduce Dain's backstory?

So far all we know of him (movie verse, not canon) is that he is a bada** warrior and has refused to help the dwarves on their quest, and that Thorin and Dwalin seem surprised and discouraged so they must have had reason to believe that Dain was somehow more invested in Erebor than the other envoys that Thorin mentioned.

Canon (SPOILERS)-we know that he was the one who killed Azog (but the movie wrecked that possibility). We know he saw Durin's Bane after the battle of Azanulbizar. We know he is the King/Lord of the Iron Hills. And we know that yes he does end up coming to the aid of Thorin post dragon and he and his armies fight at the BO5A and after the deaths of Thorin, Fili and Kili he ascends the reclaimed throne of Erebor as King Under the Mountain and eventually meets his demise during the War of the Ring.

So I think that it is likely that Gandalf/Thrain will probably be the flashback for DOS. It is plausible the Dain backstory could be a flashback for TABA. But depending on how the Necromancer plot goes, it could still be either one for DOS.

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2013, 7:58pm

Post #33 of 36 (85 views)
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Interesting thought [In reply to] Can't Post

would love to see them introduce Dain in a way that the audience will accept his being made king over any of the dwarfs that were on the quest.Wink But i don't think its gonna happen to be honest. There really isn't a way to bring Dain into the story now, Peter Jackson has killed that by his "Dain will not come" nonsense. it wouldn't make sense for him to now want to come after denying Thorin any help. I can see him however showing up after knowing the dragon is dead, to help Thorin without the threat of getting many of his troops killed. I think Dain will show up after the fact unaware that the elves and humans have threatened Thorin with war if he does not help them. And ultimately the audience will be left wondering who the heck is this guy? and why should he be made king? Unsure


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2013, 8:26pm

Post #34 of 36 (80 views)
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If only...Dain is such a key, heroic character! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
would love to see them introduce Dain in a way that the audience will accept his being made king over any of the dwarfs that were on the quest.Wink But i don't think its gonna happen to be honest. There really isn't a way to bring Dain into the story now, Peter Jackson has killed that by his "Dain will not come" nonsense. it wouldn't make sense for him to now want to come after denying Thorin any help. I can see him however showing up after knowing the dragon is dead, to help Thorin without the threat of getting many of his troops killed. I think Dain will show up after the fact unaware that the elves and humans have threatened Thorin with war if he does not help them. And ultimately the audience will be left wondering who the heck is this guy? and why should he be made king? Unsure








I really cannot see where Jackson is going with Dain's character after that line in Bag End. It seems so pointless to paint him in such a (uncanonical) bad light in order to boost Thorin's likeability factor, when he is ultimately the figure who will become King Under the Mountain at the end of the trilogy. Does he really want the audience to hate him, and go home dissatisfied? It's a mystery... Crazy


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort




Avatar: Elwing by art-nouveau-club on DeviantArt

(This post was edited by Eleniel on Apr 19 2013, 8:27pm)


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 25 2013, 8:01am

Post #35 of 36 (27 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dol Guldur and the Thrain scene is one of the few possibilities in which both storylines can be addressed ad therefore remind the audience of all important things.


Yes, and that's also what I find problematic: it places too much importance on the newly added storyline, making it equal to the main quest of the Dwarf company. I see the key link between these two as very weak. Neither do I appreciate the dark tone it would set for the entire movie from the very first moments: I had exactly the same problem with RotK opening with the murder scene. I was rather hoping TH would be lighter in tone than LotR; showing a creepy fortress with a deranged Dwarf and possible screams of the tortured doesn't really help me see that.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Arannir
Valinor

Apr 25 2013, 8:05am

Post #36 of 36 (35 views)
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Yes... I guess this depends on what one wanted from the movies. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanted it like that, so I would be very happy with it. But I totally can see where you are coming from.

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