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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
deaths in the hobbit trilogy?
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ShireHorse
Rohan

Apr 11 2013, 1:50pm

Post #26 of 36 (166 views)
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I'd like to read that letter too, Kimtc, LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

But, just to help you whilst we're waiting, I can think of a number of reasons as to why the deaths of Fili and Kili are an aside.

1. None of the dwarves except Thorin get much characterisation. I think that it is only in our own minds that we have made the brothers significant. Awww, so young!

2. It's a children's story. Tolkien couldn't resist killing off his tragic hero. But, it wouldn't be realistic if no-one else in the company died and so he killed off two more but didn't rub it in just in case it upset his young readers too much.

3. So many young men died in the first world war, including Tolkien's friends. Perhaps this was his little tribute to them but, as above, he thought it unnecessary to make a meal of it.

4. This aside about their deaths reminds me of Auden's significant poem, written at about the same time as TH, called Musee des Beaux Arts, in which the poet contemplates a painting depicting the fall of Icarus. What a marvel! A young man falling to his death out of the sky into the sea! And yet, all you see of his tragic death are two little legs poking out of the water in the bottom right-hand corner whilst the ship and the rest of life carries calmly on, ignoring him. Here's the picture:

http://www.bouwman.com/...lands/Landscape.html

And here's the poem:

http://english.emory.edu/...amp;poems/auden.html

Tragedies happen and no-one notices or cares.

Tolkien must have felt that the tremendous loss of young life in WWI was merely a footnote in history for many people and similarly sneaks in these deaths into his story as an aside.

5. And, yes, Dain had a part to play and so the heirs of Durin were superfluous.


Kimtc
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 2:41pm

Post #27 of 36 (139 views)
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Thanks for all those possibilities! [In reply to] Can't Post

I had seen that painting a long time ago, and never really thought about the overall meaning of it.

I can't wait to see the reaction of non-readers to all this (think Ned Stark).


Kimtc
Rohan


Apr 11 2013, 2:47pm

Post #28 of 36 (166 views)
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AUJ foreshadows this. [In reply to] Can't Post

At the end, when Thorin is lying on the rock, and Bilbo is about to become warg food after protecting him, Fili, Kili, and Dwalin all show up to protect Thorin (and Bilbo) from further harm. It is possible that, even if they thought he was dead, it was on their collective minds what Azog did to Thror's head after Azanulbizar, and didn't want the same thing to happen to Thorin's body.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 11 2013, 2:55pm

Post #29 of 36 (157 views)
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Well said Shirehorse [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've always supported Thorin and been annoyed with the rest of them ever since I read the book. Thorin has the responsibility and the right as a warrior and the heir of Durin to kill Azog in revenge for the death and defiling of Thror. Why have the others any better right? Bilbo betrays him; Thranduil shows the most greed of any of them; Bard is in it for selfish reasons because he wants to be king of Dale; Beorn has his own agenda; Dain never answered his king's call when he asked for his help (or at least that's the way the film is playing it). Why are any of them more deserving than Thorin who has done his best against all the odds?

Tolkien expects us to forgive Thorin for his flaws the moment he emerges from the Mountain to help the men and elves in battle. And, if we are still feeling grumpy about him as he lies dying, then his apology to Bilbo for losing his temper with him should be more than sufficient to absolve him. To me, Thorin appears nobler than any of the others AND he loses his life while the others go on to spend his treasure and live lives of comfort and power. You're just too hard on him.

Very, very nice analysis ShireHorse. I have always been a Fan of Thorin, from the first day when I was a kid so many, many years ago and had the good fortune to first read the Hobbit then the Lord of the Rings - all of which saved me during a very lonely childhood.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 11 2013, 3:00pm

Post #30 of 36 (146 views)
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Fili/Kili - Thorin protectors in AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

I did like/note how PJ showed - after Bilbo came to stand by the down Thorin - the first two dwarves that were there - - his nephews....


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 11:40pm

Post #31 of 36 (97 views)
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Thorin's achievements (book spoilers continued) [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, maybe I went a bit too far in saying that Thorin will not have achieved any of his goals at the end. After all, he led the Company to reclaim the Lonely Mountain and will almost certainly make a valiant last stand. So I think his story arc will be bittersweet rather than completely tragic.

Also, I don't think not giving the audience what it wants or expects is necessarily a bad thing. Having Thorin, Fili, and Kili die will definitely upset people but we know it has to happen. And depending on how it plays out, having someone else kill Azog may not be dissatisfying. But at this point I mostly want Dain to have a final showdown with Azog because that's what's in the books. Laugh

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Lio
Lorien


Apr 11 2013, 11:54pm

Post #32 of 36 (107 views)
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Mrs Azog! XD And also Saruman and Bolg stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an interesting theory concerning Radagast and Saruman, but I don't think they would show Saruman becoming completely evil so early. I think, movie-wise, he is still being portrayed as good (but veryvery cranky) at this point. Although maybe at the end they will include some hints of him being seduced by evil. As for Radagast, I hope he doesn't die! He's such a sweet guy and doesn't deserve it. Frown

I've been wondering what Bolg is up to in Dol Guldur as well. It kind of worries me a bit, I hope they don't try to establish a connection between the Necromancer and every other plot point. I wouldn't mind them having a mutually beneficial alliance of sorts, but I don't much like the idea of the Necromancer pulling all the strings from behind the scenes.

Ahahaha, I would totally love to see Bolg's mom (or Mrs Azog). Heart But for some reason I picture her being a total nag. Whenever I try to think of what kind of scenes she could be in this is all I can come up with:

MRS AZOG: BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBOLG!

BOLG: Yes, mother?

MRS AZOG: If you see your no-good father, tell him that if he forgets to take out the trash one more time I'll tear that fork out of his arm and shove it where the sun don't shine.

BOLG: Yes, mother.

Be very, very happy that I am not a scriptwriter for these movies. Laugh

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 12 2013, 1:38am

Post #33 of 36 (92 views)
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LMAO [In reply to] Can't Post

That gave me a good chuckle just before bed, thank you for that!

If there is ever a Hobbit parody to be had, I think we all know who to go to. Tongue


Lio
Lorien


Apr 12 2013, 10:31pm

Post #34 of 36 (49 views)
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Haha, no problem! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, sometimes I randomly burst into writing out these warped scenes in the middle of my posts. Maybe one day I'll go back and collect them all and make a script out of it. Who knows, there might be enough for a fourth Hobbit movie! Wink

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 15 2013, 2:49pm

Post #35 of 36 (26 views)
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Dear Lio - your Mrs. Azog stuff Kills Me ! [In reply to] Can't Post

It is so funny !Smile


Lio
Lorien


Apr 15 2013, 10:42pm

Post #36 of 36 (30 views)
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Aww, thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't hesitate to post more in the future. If I can still think of any that is. Laugh

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!

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