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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
My speculative theory on why Azog was kept alive [spoilers]


Apr 10 2013, 3:29am

Post #1 of 5 (1466 views)
My speculative theory on why Azog was kept alive [spoilers] Can't Post

Okay so with A LOT of thinking I've developed a theory. But to understand it you need to first know my speculative idea on how AUJ played out before the split. Here are the important scenes:

Scene 1 GANDALF DISCOVERS THRAIN: Originally placed at dinner in Bag End, this scene shows Gandalf discovering a crazed Thrain and gaining map and key. After asking "who did this to you?" Gandalf can only get the response "Azog...Azog..." bringing fear to the company that Azog survived.

Scene 2 WEATHERTOP: After failing to capture the dwarves, the chief orc [Yazneg] reports back to his boss. - the audience learns Azog isn't alive but his son, Bolg, is commanding the search wanting vengeance. He puts a price on Thorin's head and sends the riders out.

Scene 3 Frying Pan: Yazneg traps the dwarves in a single tree, but the eagles come and save them [no showdown]

Scene 4 Beorn: Beorn searches out and tortures answers from Yazneg. He learns about the situation with Bolg and informs Thorin.

Now the decision comes to split this into 2 movies. The final scene is now the Carrock rather than the barrels, so the final big moment is when the dwarves are saved. But, with no real action, this is a hugely anticlimactic ending, so an epic showdown is needed!**** So what are the options?

Thorin vs Yazneg Thorin having a showdown with Yazneg would be one thing, but Thorin gets out of a pretty tight spot (dangling from a tree) to fight him and would need a lot of motivation to achieve this. Also being nearly defeated by such a minor orc would make him seem weak. - We need a bigger threat and more motivation!

Thorin vs Bolg Thorin having a showdown with Bolg would ruin the surprise too soon and would change Beorn's purpose too severely. Remember, Beorn needs to inform Thorin that Bolg is alive, but also Beorn needs to kill the leader of the warg-pack and if that's Bolg then who leads the orcs at Bo5A?

Thorin vs Azog So, in a bold move, Azog supplies the right amount of motivation for a final-scene showdown and doesn't conflict with Beorn's story too strongly, he's also a great alternative source for Beorn to receive news of Bolg.

If my thinking is right, the next film will see Beorn torturing information from Azog and learning about Bolg, then later informing Thorin about the situation.

But if Azog is killed by Beorn why does Bolg care about Thorin? Well the simple answer is, he doesn't, much. Bolg is Beorn's enemy, not Thorin's. The real question here is, who will kill Thorin? Maybe Bolg will still do it, Thorin did cut his dad's arm off and Bolg did torture Thrain for a while, so there's motivation. Or maybe someone else will do it. It's possible that Thranduil could back-stab him in a moment of greed, for example. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

****An Epic Showdown is Needed: Film 1's theme was very much about Thorin's trust in Bilbo, and this was something that needed to be resolved at the end. When Bilbo saves the dwarves from the Elvenking's Hall [and the spiders], a new respect is gained and is then resolved in the barrel escape with the words "I have never been so wrong in all my life". But when the split came, this was no-longer the end, the resolve couldn't happen in the middle of film 2! So the line was moved to the Carrock (along with the thrush). It then became necessary for Bilbo to also stand against Azog, so that Thorin could see Bilbo's courage, respect could be gained and the matter of trust could be resolved at the end.

PS: I realise this is all highly speculative. It's not necessarily what I believe to be true, but it's a theory with few holes as far as I can see.

(This post was edited by AshNazg on Apr 10 2013, 3:38am)


Apr 10 2013, 10:18am

Post #2 of 5 (800 views)
Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Manu Benett said that PJ said there would be alot more Azog in film 2 and 3.


Apr 11 2013, 12:41am

Post #3 of 5 (622 views)
Interesting thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

So here are some random thoughts of my own! Smile

The whole Azog/Yazneg/Bolg role changes have been so confusing that I honestly won't even attempt to speculate on this until it gets sorted out. I'm hoping we'll get the full story of what exactly the changes were in the EE commentaries or whatnot. (Personally, I thought Azog was supposed to have been there all along, only the old "Yazneg" design was replaced with the new CGI Azog one. And I thought Bolg's design was always intended for Bolg, but now there are some suggestions it might have been Azog's? But I thought Azog has only two designs, the Yazneg and CGI one? Okay, I'll stop now. Crazy)

I think you're on to something with the addition of an "epic showdown", since after the decision to split the movies AUJ needed a climax. Originally the Orcs could have just chased them up the trees and the Eagles saved them with no fighting, regardless if Azog had been there in his final version or not.

I don't think we'll see Beorn interrogating Azog though, or any confrontation between the two. I don't think Beorn would (or could) capture Azog alive, for one thing! It would be a battle to the death. Shocked Plus I don't see Azog caving in under torture even if it did happen.

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Apr 11 2013, 9:50am

Post #4 of 5 (608 views)
Glad at least one person read it... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a long post and badly written Tongue I feel the same, in that the situation is so confusing it's exhausting just trying to work it out and much easier to just wait and see. Something that interested me, though is Manu Bennet's latest interview he mentions being CGI'd over Bolg. Now, if he went to school with Conan Stevens I don't see how he could make that mistake, so I'm inclined to say this backs-up my theory a little. But I admit there's pretty flimsy evidence, so we'll have to just see how things go.

Beorn vs Azog
In the book, Beorn goes and interrogates the orcs, it's actually described in much more detail than you might remember (more detail than I remembered anyway). He gets information off of the orcs and then beheads the leader and skins the main warg. He puts the head, on a stick in his garden and pins the warg's skin to the side of his house. Now this might be a silly reason to assume that this will happen (but I've gone on flimsy evidence so far, so I'll continue the pattern) a white warg skin pinned to the wall would look AWESOME Maybe Azog's right-hand man will get beheaded and Azog will get away, but I don't think his warg will survive. But again, it's a matter of waiting to see, really Frown


Apr 11 2013, 11:26pm

Post #5 of 5 (575 views)
Beorn Interrogation [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I've expressed my confusion about the Azog/Bolg/Yazneg design thing in that thread as well. Laugh I guess at this point there's not much we can do except scratch our heads until PJ or someone who knows what really went down steps in and clears everything up.

I do remember that part about Beorn capturing the Orc and Warg in the book, although of course I don't know how much if any of it will make it into the movie. It would be an interesting scene, but for some reason I think they'll cut it. I don't know, it seems like too much of an aside from the main story. Plus we already have that scene with Tauriel and the captured Orc in Mirkwood which might be too similar.

Anyway, I think both Azog and the White Warg (Daisy! Heart) will survive well into the second movie and most likely the third. I just don't see either of them being killed off so early.

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


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